tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post1592871110673752217..comments2024-03-12T04:14:16.271-05:00Comments on The Rad Trad: Turn Back the Liturgical ClockThe Rad Tradhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-19313816035515526832016-02-15T14:01:46.726-06:002016-02-15T14:01:46.726-06:00Nice to see some support for morning Vespers! Nice to see some support for morning Vespers! Solitary Sojourning https://www.blogger.com/profile/12091161291027576112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-45886925444136520222016-02-14T17:20:42.044-06:002016-02-14T17:20:42.044-06:00BTW, it would be very ironic if the liturgical ref...BTW, it would be very ironic if the liturgical reforms were made deliberately "to make no sense whatsoever." But I think it close to nil, if not 0. I doubt that any reformer had that idea! As it is, I understand your point, Marko; still, all the misguided reforms were made in the name of making sense, not nonsense.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08395971347119256329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-86743340913983570912016-02-14T17:03:25.597-06:002016-02-14T17:03:25.597-06:00Still, the changes made in the 20th century were a...Still, the changes made in the 20th century were all made to rational ideology, not on the basis of the Fall. Everything needed to be compartmentalized, clean, etc. I argue that the inversion of time symbolism cannot fit into the mindset of the reformers of the 20th century, even though they probably would have used it, if their scholarship were half-way decent.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08395971347119256329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-5712626893193859782016-02-14T14:39:46.441-06:002016-02-14T14:39:46.441-06:00@Paul, then the washing of the feet as per Pian re...@Paul, then the washing of the feet as per Pian reforms, makes sense because it doesn't make sense that it comes before the Communion, contrary to the Gospel, where washing of the feet comes after Communion. Yeah, as you suspected, the explanation doesn't appease me, because with it, you can justify anything in the liturgy.<br /><br />The Fall - therefore modern liturgical reform. Many things don't make sense, but hey - there's the Fall so all will make sense in novissimo die.<br /><br />@TRT. Yeah i've been attending Byzantine liturgy nearby. Very poorly attended. The priest, his son as an altar boy sometimes, a singer (to which i provide basso continuo - i stand next to him. the priest made a joke that i will replace the singer since i know the chants by heart already :D ), and a few people. I've found myself very at home there. <br /><br />About Matins. Yeah - Carthusians start with matins at 23 or 23:30 - depends on the charterhouse. In older monastic breviaries matins aren't called matins but vigils, and lauds are called matins. So yeah. But vespers - yeah makes no sense.<br /><br />I know that the word noon, comes from latin "none", since english monks had a tendecy to say the designated hours a bit earlier (even 3 hours earlier) so they sung none at noon and not at 3pm. but vespers in the morning. i mean wth.Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-25932720620733374532016-02-14T13:02:57.052-06:002016-02-14T13:02:57.052-06:00Martinucci notes the option of having Vespers, Mat...Martinucci notes the option of having Vespers, Mattins & Lauds of the Dead on the morning of a funeral.<br /><br />One of the first things, if not the very first thing, I found out about the traditional Roman liturgy was the practice of the early Vespers on ferial days in Lent. I must say I found it so extraordinary that I warmed to the idea instantly. I think it is rather akin to the issues raised in the recent post about the Mass of the Pre-Sanctified. If we follow too rational an agenda something rather precious is lost.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-69687047884671221892016-02-14T11:12:23.418-06:002016-02-14T11:12:23.418-06:00"I know i just said the same thing 3 times, b..."I know i just said the same thing 3 times, but hey."<br /><br />That either means you're insane or going to the Byzantine liturgy ;-)<br /><br />Your point is well taken with regard to Vespers, but reciting Mattins & Lauds the previous night is actually a very well grounded tradition. Since it was initially a vigil service that would run through the night and end with the Mass at dawn, in the first millennium they sang Mattins and Lauds in the evening so they would end in darkness, a contrast to the norm throughout the rest of the year; Batiffol recounts the Tenebrae candle ceremony already in the 8/9th century.<br /><br />Again, I see your point with regard to Vespers though.The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-10512599735281682962016-02-14T06:41:46.922-06:002016-02-14T06:41:46.922-06:00That's the point. It's not making sense, s...That's the point. It's not making sense, since the Fall made things go haywire. So in addition to breaking the Fast, it came to be understood that Vespers in the morning for Lent (and other penitential days in the East) was deliberately done to not make sense with the normal hours. But if that explanation doesn't appease you, to each one his own. Still, I found it helpful myself.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08395971347119256329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-42169539870231799532016-02-14T02:50:45.957-06:002016-02-14T02:50:45.957-06:00I think that inversion of times is silly.
That'...I think that inversion of times is silly.<br />That's one thing i'll never understand, no matter the mystical interpretations.<br />It just doesn't make sense to me.<br /><br />I know i just said the same thing 3 times, but hey.Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-74485366633935203462016-02-13T14:58:17.272-06:002016-02-13T14:58:17.272-06:00BTW, my father's death is on March 15. He died...BTW, my father's death is on March 15. He died 4 years ago on that date. Please keep him in your prayers.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08395971347119256329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-41434085312438731492016-02-13T13:37:33.828-06:002016-02-13T13:37:33.828-06:00Just to make it clear, I was talking about the Piu...Just to make it clear, I was talking about the Pius X reforms to the Monastic Breviary.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08395971347119256329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-75672442302049288022016-02-13T13:36:20.662-06:002016-02-13T13:36:20.662-06:00You know, it is ironic in that while the reforms o...You know, it is ironic in that while the reforms of Pius X were radical in some respects, it kept the rankings of the feasts far better than the Monastic Office, which while it kept the structure of the Psalter, radically changed the rankings (anticipating some of the 1960 reforms):<br /><br />-No Simples (just commemorations) and no Semidoubles, except Days within Octaves<br />-in the Septuagesima season, the Feria is commemorated (scrapped in 1963)<br />-in Lent, even Major Doubles are merely commemorated!<br />-the Chair of St. Peter at Rome on Jan. 18 was already removed as well, meaning this year the Chair of St. Peter on Feb. 22 will be merely commemorated as with the 1960 reforms in the Roman Office!Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08395971347119256329noreply@blogger.com