tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post1911587972631649722..comments2024-03-12T04:14:16.271-05:00Comments on The Rad Trad: Considering the Scapular (Part III)The Rad Tradhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-74180544145683252442016-06-14T08:59:14.255-05:002016-06-14T08:59:14.255-05:00I have considered packing everything into storage ...I have considered packing everything into storage and moving into a desert cave, before. Even then, I probably wouldn't have anything to do with the Carmelites, and I think I would just bring a copy of the Holy Writ and Augustine's <i>Confessions</i> or <i>City of God</i>.J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04821093432726247774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-58147918454752659432016-06-14T03:06:45.410-05:002016-06-14T03:06:45.410-05:00@J.
I respect that. I see you would be more fitted...@J.<br />I respect that. I see you would be more fitted for the Benedictines as far as contemplative orders go.<br /><br />Carmelites trace their lineage to Mt. Carmel and Elijah the Prophet. It's based on a hermetic spirituality, the lone prophet in communion with God. There is a communal aspect to Carmel, but I suppose it is originally a "community of hermits". <br /><br />I think the Psalms show a deeply personal relationship with God. The Psalmist very often addresses the Lord directly: "my soul thirsts for thee; my flesh faints for thee."Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13858873453982708283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-53465355020378722212016-06-14T00:30:05.515-05:002016-06-14T00:30:05.515-05:00How many hermits were there that are unknown to us...How many hermits were there that are unknown to us, how many cenobites, how many carthusians - there could be a thousand of them and every one of them more saintly than st. Theresa and st. John, and we know none of them.<br /><br />It's just that the "classical" monasticism wasn't popular after the emergence of mendicant orders.Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-90262321486215356422016-06-13T17:59:03.645-05:002016-06-13T17:59:03.645-05:00I believe the Carthusians do not mark their deceas...I believe the Carthusians do not mark their deceased for this reason.Marco da Vinhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06092410765851812842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-74809645969640610472016-06-13T17:09:39.322-05:002016-06-13T17:09:39.322-05:00That still doesn't mean the monastic orders ha...That still doesn't mean the monastic orders haven't produced saints. Even if they're not canonized. I'd rather think that they don't really care about being officially recognized as saints.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08395971347119256329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-19486603188651128762016-06-13T16:16:44.322-05:002016-06-13T16:16:44.322-05:00I must admit I have have not yet made me acquainte...I must admit I have have not yet made me acquainted with the Carmelite spirituality. One fact makes me think, though. As it is said: by their fruits you will know them. The Carmelite order throughout its history and into the modern times is producing saints. The 'classical' monastic orders seem to have no canonized saints (males, at least) who lived after 13-14th century.Pulexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13164993172745639593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-5623375526152608762016-06-13T14:37:36.303-05:002016-06-13T14:37:36.303-05:00Indeed, Origen’s commentary on the Song of Songs f...Indeed, Origen’s commentary on the Song of Songs focuses on both the church and the individual soul and that the church is where the soul meets Christ as well as others who are baptized and made righteous. Matthew Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00958673318312786618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-38271003104683101782016-06-13T11:34:14.278-05:002016-06-13T11:34:14.278-05:00@J.
It might have been St. Bernard who popularized...@J.<br />It might have been St. Bernard who popularized the allegory during his time, but the love of Christ for the individual soul certainly has been one of the main themes of Christian mysticism since the time of Origen. It doesn't get much earlier then that, I'd think. Tarquiniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03306860641737970883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-80170423370093518472016-06-13T10:44:50.165-05:002016-06-13T10:44:50.165-05:00@J.
i subscribe to every letter of your last parag...@J.<br />i subscribe to every letter of your last paragraphMarko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-26964746311262264142016-06-13T08:51:28.521-05:002016-06-13T08:51:28.521-05:00Maybe I will write something about Carmelite spiri...Maybe I will write something about Carmelite spirituality on this blog at a future date, but I don't mind jotting down a few preliminary thoughts. I think the Modern-Romantic aspect of Carmelite writing is actually what bothers me the most about it. (I say Modern-Romantic, because in medieval times, "romance" was simply the term used for an adventure story, with or without an amorous subplot.) I know that a spirituality describing the interaction between God and the Christian soul as an amorous one goes back a long way, but it has always felt rather alien to me.<br /><br />When the Evangelists and Epistolists considered the relationship between Christ and the Christian, they used a wide variety of metaphors. God is our Father, and we are adopted brothers of Christ; the Church is one body, which is Christ's, and we are all members; Christ is not only Lord, but Friend; and so on. The bridal imagery in the New Testament always applied to the Church as a whole (the Bride of Christ), rather than to the individual Christian. Early interpretations allegorized the "Song of Songs" as the love of God for his Church. Early medieval interpreters applied it allegorically to God's love for Mary. I think it was St. Bernard who popularized the allegory of the SoS to God's metaphorically amorous love for the individual soul.<br /><br />Far be it from me to suggest that God does not love each of us individually and uniquely, but as far as metaphors go, I find those of adopted brotherhood and friendship to be most helpful in my own spiritual growth. Carmelite spirituality is very much focused on the lone soul in communion with the Divine Lover. I lean much more towards liturgical practice, which emphasizes the <i>ecclesia</i> rather than the soul. In searching after a Divine Romance, it is too easy to lose sight of the fact that we are all soldiers in the Church Militant, and that we don't all receive our orders straight from the General, himself.J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04821093432726247774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-37315592183169575702016-06-13T08:25:53.431-05:002016-06-13T08:25:53.431-05:00I know that, for many people, the brown scapular i...I know that, for many people, the brown scapular is simply a sign of devotion to the Virgin, and through her to Christ. So for them to remove the scapular is tantamount to rejecting Mary and her intercession. I see nothing wrong with wearing something as a sort of sign or reminder, but the brown scapular is so historically and devotionally tied to one particular religious order, that I think it wrong to make so much out of it.<br /><br />By all means wear whichever scapular you wish, but don't disregard the extra responsibilities that come with wearing it. The brown scapular is not just a sign of Mary's intercessory power, it is a sign of extraordinary religious obligations.J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04821093432726247774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-85938930770978268432016-06-13T04:58:10.915-05:002016-06-13T04:58:10.915-05:00I'm reminded actually of an anecdote from east...I'm reminded actually of an anecdote from eastern Europe. A young Orthodox girl was reading the Imitation of Christ, and an Orthodox priest removed it from her, telling her to, "stop trying to have a romance with God." Well, if a young girl isn't going to have a romance with God, who is she going to have a romance with? The truth is that scripture is full of romantic and conjugal symbols when talking about the loving union of God and man. IMO this the final object of religion and of our very lives. Those that want to keep God at a distance are doing themselves a disfavour. I think a lot of Eastern Orthodox spirituality in general is influenced by a hyper-asceticism which would deny legitimate human longings. I think Carmelite spirituality is the perfect balance between dispassionate contemplation and passionate love of God, appealing equally to the mind and the heart.Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13858873453982708283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-3897252541060534812016-06-13T04:50:35.518-05:002016-06-13T04:50:35.518-05:00Thanks for this. I have been enrolled in the brown...Thanks for this. I have been enrolled in the brown scapular. I attend Third Order meetings monthly. However, I've been negligent in looking into the proper way of honouring this sacramental. I've been thinking about the Little Office for a while; a friend said he would give me a spare one, but he hasn't, so I'm going to just order it now and start praying it. I wish to be a Carmelite (even if only Third Order), so it's more than just a medal for me. What is it about Carmelite spirituality that leaves you cold? I felt immediately drawn to it; it's filled with the most profound psychological insight, and aspires towards mystical and personal union with God. Perhaps Carmelite spirituality appeals only to a certain type of person; I think it appeals naturally to introverts and people with a preference for solitude, who want an absorbing love of God and man. Is there any other Order in the Church that so fully mapped out the safe road to mental/contemplative prayer and union with God? There's a famous Carmelite book, "Divine Intimacy"; perhaps you need a romantic personality that longs for personal union, and maybe some people are put off by the idea of intimacy with God, though I don't see why they should.<br /><br />I admit I may have been drawn in by "baroque devotionalism" a bit, but this is because I'm a convert with the typical convert's zeal. Private devotions are good in themselves, of course, it's just that people need to be aware of the responsibility that they are often taking on. I've often been unfaithful to the devotions I've taken up, to my own detriment. <br /><br />St. John of the Cross talks about the dangers of "spiritual avarice", of attachment to spiritual items. I think it's easy for people to fall into a bad devotionalism these days because of a lack of spiritual direction. You have to be careful not to go the other way though, and stamp out all personal piety in the name of curbing excesses. The thing that must be avoided is when the devotion becomes a religion unto itself, and the gospel fades into obscurity as some pious devotion practically takes it place. Like the woman who said, "I don't believe in God, but I do believe in the rosary," which whiffs of idolatry. So there is a true piety which means pledging yourself to God in a conscious way, and there is a false devotionalism that leads away from God by becoming an end itself. It can be hard sometimes to see the difference though. I have less sympathy for those who want to rubbish all forms of piety than those who encourage a false piety, because at least the latter often have good intentions.Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13858873453982708283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-38604817187042169202016-06-13T00:53:05.414-05:002016-06-13T00:53:05.414-05:00I wear a scapular now for more than ten years. Tho...I wear a scapular now for more than ten years. Though I agree that the scapular is not a simple freecard to heaven, in some of my darker periods, when life and God seemed to be all against me, oftentimes the temptation arose to tear off the scapular from my neck. Not only because of the promise you highly doubt but also because of the completely conscious decision to apostasy it would encompass I always decided against it. I had the impression that the dwvil wanted me to get rid of the scapular and its promise. Beside these temptations it was also the scapular around my neck which was a sign for Gods presence, protection and guidance - even in these dark times. <br /><br />So, is the scapular a magical safecard to heaven? No, but at least we can think of it as a sign, like a wedding ring. Up to now the Lord has blessed me with the good times, but I know from couples who went through some bleak times. Some people in those couples told me that the wedding ring was what kept them together and helped them to overcome some temptations. <br /><br />Both the wedding ring and the scapular, even looked upon without the associated promise or the sacramental nature of the scapular, are signs for a bond chosen because of love. In dark times when questioning these bonds the physical signs remember me about the promises associated with them abd the gravity of the step when deciding against it. So, in that sense, the scapular around my neck is a sign not only of Marys promise but of mine to stay faithful on Gods side. FingOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16991310654928335746noreply@blogger.com