tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post2531425896515579655..comments2024-03-12T04:14:16.271-05:00Comments on The Rad Trad: Bridal TrainsThe Rad Tradhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-35493540613951172472016-01-16T18:59:48.029-06:002016-01-16T18:59:48.029-06:00Rad Trad, if a parish observes the Triduum in the ...Rad Trad, if a parish observes the Triduum in the morning hours precisely so that they can fit public celebrations of all the hours of the Divine Office (*cricket chirps*), then by all means. But considering the Masses alone, I've always found the later times far more convenient. I suppose it helps that I'm not a morning person, but to give a concrete example, there's no way my wife and I would have been able to attend the Vigil of Easter last year if it had been in the morning because our infant daughter would have fought it tooth and nail. We put her to bed at home at night, then left for the church.The Modern Medievalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238571174836044412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-51193010802396986852016-01-16T11:38:37.336-06:002016-01-16T11:38:37.336-06:00@Mr Medievalist,
I think the times are to be coun...@Mr Medievalist,<br /><br />I think the times are to be counted among the defective features of the Pacellian novelties. While writers can object that it is absurd to hold the Saturday vesperal liturgy at 8AM and that it only came to that point so people could end their fast, there was also a pastoral sensibility to it. Indeed, aside from Saturday, the new times make no historic sense. The Ordo Romanus II from the 8/9th century denotes the Mandy Thursday Mass was celebrated after Terce, at 9M, after the manner of a festive Mass. Why celebrated the Presanctified Mass at 3PM on Friday, when the Passion is already over?<br /><br />Practically the old times allowed the full liturgy to be celebrated in parishes: Mass/Vespers in the morning, Compline and Mandatum in the afternoon, and Tenebrae at night for Thursday; Mass/Vespers at noon, stations of the Cross in the afternoon, and Tenebrae at night for Friday; Mass/vespers in the morning, compline in the afternoon, and Mattins & Lauds in the evening for Saturday. The compression of everything into the evening resulted in the elimination of Vespers throughout the week and of Paschal Mattins & Lauds, the most important Office of the year. <br /><br />While I'd like to experience the old Holy Week at the purist's time in the evening myself, such might only be possible in monasteries. At the parish and cathedral level the pre-1955 times were sensible ways of practicing the whole liturgy and avoiding burnout.The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-10114298948263351842016-01-15T13:40:00.551-06:002016-01-15T13:40:00.551-06:00"also in favor of pre-1955 Holy Week, but can..."also in favor of pre-1955 Holy Week, but can we keep the restored times (mid-afternoon Good Friday, Easter Vigil at night, etc.)? Or at least leave it to the pastor's discretion as to what times best serve his flock?"<br /><br />We'll be doing exactly as you wish at my parish 10 weeks hence, except we'll be following a literally Vesperal time for the Paschal Vigil which will begin at 5pm on Holy Saturday. Check out Fr. Hunwicke's words today about 1,500-year old rites and their auctoritas vis-à-vis legislative texts. Time to just do the perennial Holy Week.<br />Joanneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00496552906164909711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-84469178501263594102016-01-15T08:18:28.787-06:002016-01-15T08:18:28.787-06:00("My wife and I", that should say above)...("My wife and I", that should say above)The Modern Medievalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238571174836044412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-49596102111427656782016-01-15T08:17:47.288-06:002016-01-15T08:17:47.288-06:00I am, of course, also in favor of pre-1955 Holy We...I am, of course, also in favor of pre-1955 Holy Week, but can we keep the restored times (mid-afternoon Good Friday, Easter Vigil at night, etc.)? Or at least leave it to the pastor's discretion as to what times best serve his flock?<br /><br />As to the cappa magna, as I told Dr. Kwasniewski in a recent correspondence, I like to think of it as a reflection of the "servant Church" spoken of by Vatican II: the prelate wearing it relies upon his attendants to keep him aright. He is not his own man, but must serve the faithful as the faithful serve him.<br /><br />If I were a prelate, I'd personally use a cappa of more modest length as in the medieval Church, but I don't mind the longer form, either.... especially since I've never actually had an opportunity to see one being used, anyway, despite being a TLM-goer for ten years.<br /><br />It also bears mentioning that my and I actually received two his-and-hers rosaries from Cardinal Burke as a wedding gift. (In the mail, not in person.)The Modern Medievalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238571174836044412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-35659267039617705642016-01-15T01:42:27.284-06:002016-01-15T01:42:27.284-06:00In fairness, Rad Trad, there's really not all ...In fairness, Rad Trad, there's really not all that many traditionalists that - at least this is my sense of the lay of the land, and I had the impression, of Dr. K - wouldn't prefer to have the pre-Pian Holy Week back, if they could have it (if they know about it at all, at least). In short, it's a bit of a false dichotomy at this point. <br /><br />The loss of the old Holy Week is worth getting a little worked up about. But the reemergence of lace and silk in a microscopically few liturgies really is not, I think. Perhaps we can hack out a compromise that keeps any Baroque vestments outside a 3km radius when we are finally able to re-stage a Sarum Use Mass.Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-84951040637589738662016-01-14T21:30:58.730-06:002016-01-14T21:30:58.730-06:00Well said! The old Holy Week must be done, and the...Well said! The old Holy Week must be done, and the deformity that is the Pius XII Holy Week and both old and new '62 Good Friday prayers should be laid to rest once and for all!Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08395971347119256329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-86526467031681979512016-01-14T20:22:06.770-06:002016-01-14T20:22:06.770-06:00Dr K, I think you're reading too much into thi...Dr K, I think you're reading too much into this. It is hardly a derision of supposed excesses in our Roman heritage. If a silk cape is sacrosanct and the traditional Holy Week is not, then I think my fellow traditionalists need to reconsider their priorities.The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-39292083531900394722016-01-14T20:17:20.847-06:002016-01-14T20:17:20.847-06:00@Mr Medievalist,
Thanks for reading. I had forgot...@Mr Medievalist,<br /><br />Thanks for reading. I had forgotten Atonement is not an Ordinariate parish. Someone once related the whole thing to me when I lived in Oxford and the Ordinariate was erected, but the facts evaded me.The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-52794550601492644872016-01-14T11:08:49.857-06:002016-01-14T11:08:49.857-06:00There is almost no custom of our Roman heritage th...There is almost no custom of our Roman heritage that could not be criticized for being "too much" or "unnecessary" or "extra," except bringing bread and wine to a table for Mass. Even if this post was meant in good fun, the implication that a cappa magna is the importation of a Baroque worldliness is just the sort of path down which Louis Bouyer in his more unguarded moments walked -- and was the axe wielded by the liturgical revolutionaries.Peter Kwasniewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05136784193150446335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-49006877132256961012016-01-14T11:06:39.553-06:002016-01-14T11:06:39.553-06:00Amen, latinmass1983!Amen, latinmass1983!Peter Kwasniewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05136784193150446335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-78689759666658236422016-01-14T03:54:27.366-06:002016-01-14T03:54:27.366-06:00In the Bible: "the Bride shall be covered in ...In the Bible: "the Bride shall be covered in gold." I am Orthodox and I am quite pleased with the garments of our priests. Super long does not exist, but gold is very present. What I appreciate most is that on Dormition Day the priests wear turquoise and gold and blue or turquoise is present in all the objects in the Church. On Easter one can observe the presence the color red alongside black which is more present than gold.<br />I think the Roman rite is more directed to symbols through shape (also presence of sculpture) while the Orthodox express more abstractly through color (no sculptures allowed). <br />During the years Virgin Mary spent at the Temple with Rabbis (her early years) she is said to have embellished the clothes of people who work at the Temple. So the decoration of priests' clothes is also expressing her presence within the Church.Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09224676979690855135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-37714000354531023452016-01-13T21:01:18.962-06:002016-01-13T21:01:18.962-06:00@EV: please be mindful of your tone.@EV: please be mindful of your tone.The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-41893173067196930522016-01-13T18:50:10.250-06:002016-01-13T18:50:10.250-06:00That is correct - they're one of only two of t...That is correct - they're one of only two of the old Anglican Use parishes not to join the Ordinariate. At least, not yet. <br /><br />If and when they do, they'll at least double the entire lay population of the North American Ordinariate - it's a big parish. Athelstanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346012062816580296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-43694337492838450902016-01-13T13:39:51.628-06:002016-01-13T13:39:51.628-06:00Then you haven't been to the SSPX back in the ...Then you haven't been to the SSPX back in the 90s or the FSSP when they first started. It's only recently that things have gotten a bit better. The SSPX are very keen on Fatima, and they still have parishes having most, if not, all of the above things EV mentioned.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08395971347119256329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-27856005426190222052016-01-13T12:29:43.553-06:002016-01-13T12:29:43.553-06:00Where in the world do you find this? In my entire ...Where in the world do you find this? In my entire life, I have never seen any of this!latinmass1983https://www.blogger.com/profile/18109855026898340656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-41777844098154973822016-01-13T11:22:58.157-06:002016-01-13T11:22:58.157-06:00As a point of technicality, Atonement is not part ...As a point of technicality, Atonement is not part of the Ordinariate, at least not yet. It remains an Anglican Use parish under the Archdiocese of San Antonio. They do use the new Ordinariate Missal for their usual liturgies, though.The Modern Medievalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238571174836044412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-934610780166014762016-01-13T11:15:01.084-06:002016-01-13T11:15:01.084-06:00Thanks for the mention, Rad Trad. My mother is an ...Thanks for the mention, Rad Trad. My mother is an Indonesian immigrant; the wedding garments are an homage to that, and they have the bonus of allowing far more color and extravagant detail than the contemporary western costume allows, without resorting to period dress. This particular design weds the conventional white of the modern age with the ideal blue of the Middle Ages. A modern medievalism, if you will. The garments are bespoke and hand embroidered from Jakarta. The bride's skirt is also hand dyed batik.<br />The Modern Medievalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07238571174836044412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-1731963404961244792016-01-13T11:09:49.443-06:002016-01-13T11:09:49.443-06:00I'd say the same thing about Fatimism, love of...I'd say the same thing about Fatimism, love of the 1950's/Pius XII, pink fiddlebacks, lace, armies of mantilla-clad scowling church-ladies running parishes, anachronistic dress codes, clericalism, and Baroque faggery.Ecclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-41346180156488391822016-01-13T09:55:29.501-06:002016-01-13T09:55:29.501-06:00Well, antiquarianism (Gothic vestments, pre-Trent ...Well, antiquarianism (Gothic vestments, pre-Trent uses, unbirettad heads, etc.) does go well with plenty of brandy, beer, and wine ... after all ... they all numb and impair the senses and cause one to view things in a very blurry way! ;-)latinmass1983https://www.blogger.com/profile/18109855026898340656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-9994537083673997972016-01-13T08:19:02.427-06:002016-01-13T08:19:02.427-06:00I didn't think seriously about it, but now tha...I didn't think seriously about it, but now that I do, I see this post as harmless fun, not really meant to insult indeed.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08395971347119256329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-6068183436197398252016-01-12T22:58:30.870-06:002016-01-12T22:58:30.870-06:00Perhaps everyone needs to lighten up and take this...Perhaps everyone needs to lighten up and take this for what it is, a bit of jesting at a silk cape?The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-3399980626567129772016-01-12T22:43:25.609-06:002016-01-12T22:43:25.609-06:00Mate, go back and read the original thread on NLM ...Mate, go back and read the original thread on NLM (which inspired this post) and my original comment. I never said anything about what was said here, only about what I had said elsewhere. Matthew Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00958673318312786618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-60768929599578332242016-01-12T17:23:52.369-06:002016-01-12T17:23:52.369-06:00Agreed. You should not make a mountain out of a mo...Agreed. You should not make a mountain out of a molehill.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08395971347119256329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-10150969713805802882016-01-12T17:10:57.994-06:002016-01-12T17:10:57.994-06:00I have no strong feelings on the cappa magna. I w...I have no strong feelings on the cappa magna. I will, however, agree with a former Anglican-priest friend of mine that all too often things like birrettas have nothing to do with the traditional liturgy and serve only as outlets for clerical vanity and prissiness (I believe that Abp. Lefebrve personally didn't like the hat for that exact reason). I say we content ourselves with a good liturgy and well-made Gothic vestments. <br />We can then afterwards drink plenty of brandy, beer, and wine rather than get angry about long cloaks!Ecclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.com