tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post3591157359671911289..comments2024-03-12T04:14:16.271-05:00Comments on The Rad Trad: More Thoughts on the Time of the Holy Saturday LiturgyThe Rad Tradhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-13287119920264003392014-04-24T21:10:17.606-05:002014-04-24T21:10:17.606-05:00Interesting thoughts.
It's sad that, even whe...Interesting thoughts.<br /><br />It's sad that, even when one hears whispers of the pre-Pius XII rites being celebrated, they're at the 1955 times. Other than at sedevacantist chapels, I've never heard of the rites being celebrated on the pre-Pian schedule; even the rabidly pre-1955 Fr. Perez celebrates in the afternoon and evening according to his independent chapel's website (http://www.ourladyhelpofchristians.us).<br /><br />(One exception might be the Carmelite Monks in Wyoming, whose Lenten newsletter I received today. One picture shows the Easter candle being lit from the trident; another shows the 'outside' part of the Holy Saturday ceremonies in broad daylight - though whether it's morning or late afternoon daylight is unclear.)Novianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09950202747011894890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-67036559106159445112014-04-23T10:29:20.350-05:002014-04-23T10:29:20.350-05:00Our Easter Vigil (NO) at the cathedral started at ...Our Easter Vigil (NO) at the cathedral started at 10 PM and ended roughly around 12:40 AM.<br /><br />Could the reference in the Praeconium to the "sacrifícium vespertínum" be related to a primitive form of Vespers?Marco da Vinhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06092410765851812842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-50713344318793230512014-04-22T19:53:44.902-05:002014-04-22T19:53:44.902-05:00Very interesting and provocative!
There are some f...Very interesting and provocative!<br />There are some facts that tend to corroborate your thesis:<br />1) St. Leo, among others, mentions Saturdays as Vigils or fasts in preparation for the solemnity to follow. These quarter-tense fasts come down to us with their own proper Gospels--a sign itself, usually, of great antiquity--and a series of lessons suited to the time. The concluding lesson (as for the Easter Vigil) is taken from Daniel, the three children in the fiery furnace.<br />2) Despite modern assertions, there remains a kind of expectation even amid the Vigil Mass properly speaking: for instance, the lack of lights at the Gospel and the absence of the Pax.<br />3) All the elements that tend to be seen nowadays as the beginning of the Easter celebration--the blessing of the font, the resurrection of the Alleluia, and the resumption of white vestments--can just as easily be viewed as preparations for the actual celebration of Pascha, a kind of readying everything and restoring it to its proper place. That the Alleluia, for instance, is followed not by its usual verses but rather by Confitemini without the repetition of the Alleluia tends to confirm this view.<br /><br />The difficulty--if it be such--is that there are many references to the night, most notably in the Exsultet but also in the Canon. However, there is one explanation (offered by the estimable Rubricarius) that this "night" is figurative, referring to the disorder of sin and the consequent disorder of earthly time, as the Prophet seems to imply when speaking of the "people that walked in darkness." Alternatively, there may be a modern, and widespread, misunderstanding of the ancient Roman notion of the times of the day, so that the later afternoon and evening would be thought of as "night"--after all, to this day the Italians say "buona sera" as a greeting immediately after noon when the sun is at its brightest, and we use "noon" ("nona hora") to refer to the midpoint of the day.<br /><br />With John R I agree that a 10;30 p.m. start-time for anything is an undue burden, but I pray that Ss.ma Trinita' followed the ancient rite, especially having witnessed for the first time the oddities of the 1955 business (and I wholeheartedly echo the sentiments of Dr. Glover regarding the same!).<br /><br />A very happy Easter to you and all your readers!<br />Fr. CapreolusCapreolushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07329413913112615954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-36512225478189578822014-04-22T11:16:44.565-05:002014-04-22T11:16:44.565-05:00I believe one has to factor in the idea of more th...I believe one has to factor in the idea of more than one Eucharistic liturgy too. Certainly that was the case in Jerusalem when Egeria visited.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-88324640622725803982014-04-22T10:50:03.091-05:002014-04-22T10:50:03.091-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.MaestroJMChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06552734342224710734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-53214496306866451572014-04-22T09:56:08.207-05:002014-04-22T09:56:08.207-05:00I would suggest that the absence of the Offertory ...I would suggest that the absence of the Offertory and Communion Antiphons is not due to the fact that the Mass of the Vigil is a simple appendage, but because it is the original Mass of Easter, whose antiquity is reflected in the fact that these chants, later developments than the chants between the lessons, are absent. I think the fact that the Mass has no Offertory, Communion, or Agnus Dei is a reflection of an early attempt at preservation.JGKesterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18031794539118564347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-32736362191511780302014-04-22T09:46:34.755-05:002014-04-22T09:46:34.755-05:00Considering the darkness (and the fact that 10:30p...Considering the darkness (and the fact that 10:30pm was listed as a start time), I wonder if the FSSP in Rome is actually following the pre-Pian rite in its entirety despite the presence of the triple reed. If they are, Mass can't be starting any sooner than 1am, a really taxing proposition for all concerned.Joanneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00496552906164909711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-14162974198014623662014-04-22T07:29:56.709-05:002014-04-22T07:29:56.709-05:00I am not arguing that the liturgy was originally a...I am not arguing that the liturgy was originally at sunset, but rather that its character changed with the separation of the ancient all night vigil into several distinct parts and the introduction of the little hours that sunset or just prior to it would be, legally, the proper time to celebrate it.<br /><br />That article suffers from a lack of properly defined terms. Vigil in ancient times was not the same thing as it is now. It was an all-night prayer service in preparation for Sunday or a great feast which ended with the celebration of the Eucharist. That vigil broke up and became the Divine Office. Vigil nowadays means a Mass that anticipates or prepares for tomorrow's feast. The author of the Catholic Encyclopedia article, and countless other early 20th century writers, wrongly conflated the primitive and later meanings. Holy Saturday, since it had a Mass, was never a late night service. That is my point. If they really wanted to "restore" the "vigil" they would ditch the Mass, concatenate the remaining rites to Mattins & Lauds, and remove the little hours between Lauds and Mass. We would be in the church for 6+ hours. I wonder why they didn't do that? Hmmmm.....The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-51131498153936503282014-04-21T23:04:30.257-05:002014-04-21T23:04:30.257-05:00The point being that it was originally not at suns...The point being that it was originally not at sunset but indeed late in the night... Unless I am reading the encyclopedia incorrectly. Would the above be at all damaging to your theory?MaestroJMChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06552734342224710734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-17269301972104879632014-04-21T23:02:52.625-05:002014-04-21T23:02:52.625-05:00This is extremely fascinating, thank you for this ...This is extremely fascinating, thank you for this post. What do you say though to this brief article in the Catholic Encyclopedia about Holy Saturday? http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07424a.htm<br /><br />An excerpt:<br /><br />"The night of the vigil of Easter has undergone a strange displacement. During the first six or seven centuries, ceremonies were in progress throughout the entire night, so that the Alleluia coincided with the day and moment of the Resurrection. In the eighth century these same ceremonies were held on Saturday afternoon and, by a singular anachronism, were later on conducted on Saturday morning, thus the time for carrying out the solemnity was advanced almost a whole day. Thanks to this change, special services were now assigned to Holy Saturday whereas, beforehand, it had had none until the late hour of the vigil. This vigil opened with the blessing of the new fire, the lighting of lamps and candles and of the paschal candle, ceremonies that have lost much of their symbolism by being anticipated and advanced from twilight to broad daylight..."MaestroJMChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06552734342224710734noreply@blogger.com