tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post5360979401059794118..comments2024-03-12T04:14:16.271-05:00Comments on The Rad Trad: Liturgical Theology of Pentecost as Told by the VigilThe Rad Tradhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-58891039657235402382015-06-04T10:05:03.847-05:002015-06-04T10:05:03.847-05:00I did some more research on the choir cassock with...I did some more research on the choir cassock with train. It seems like it was abolished by Pius XII in the 50's. Dolan obviously isn't much of a fan of the Pian reforms, so that's probably why he still wears it. At least we can't blame today's bishops for not wearing it when celebrating according to the 1962 Missal.<br /><br />More on the choir cassock:<br /><br />http://orbiscatholicussecundus.blogspot.de/2011/12/what-choir-cassock-with-train-looks.html<br /><br />http://orbiscatholicus.blogspot.de/2008/03/custom-of-train.html<br /><br />http://www2.fiu.edu/~mirandas/valde.htmKonstantinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13701303189143549671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-3810440616833846562015-05-28T22:45:08.727-05:002015-05-28T22:45:08.727-05:00I'd take John XXIII over almost any other 20th...I'd take John XXIII over almost any other 20th Century pope. I am not joking.Ecclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-20744205190951274382015-05-28T19:30:46.454-05:002015-05-28T19:30:46.454-05:00Rubricarius, you shouldn't say things like tha...Rubricarius, you shouldn't say things like that. I laughed hysterically at work when your comment arrived and people looked at me as though I had lost a screw.The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-2730202818449865112015-05-28T17:43:32.443-05:002015-05-28T17:43:32.443-05:00Well said, Rubricarius. I certainly would not choo...Well said, Rubricarius. I certainly would not choose either, but if I had to I would much prefer John XXIII to Pius XII, I think.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13240425842855092083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-54680766221482037912015-05-28T17:19:46.993-05:002015-05-28T17:19:46.993-05:00The Catholic Herald archives are now sadly behind ...The Catholic Herald archives are now sadly behind a paywall, but I remember reading an interview with Fr. Peter Morgan there from the 1970s that described his English SSPX house as having no picture of a pope after Pius XI. I wonder if in those days of primeval traditionalism, a Pius XI "cutoff" was not unheard of.<br /><br />As far as sedevacantist topics go, I would be far more interested in a review of its Latin American or European adherents. Far too much attention is paid to the SW Ohio and Long Island cults already.<br /><br />Finally, isn't there episcopal mourning dress that would be more appropriate (or at least more logical) for Bishop Dolan to wear?Novianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09950202747011894890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-68139812987344818902015-05-28T14:21:55.490-05:002015-05-28T14:21:55.490-05:00Fr. Hunwicke has written some pertinent words: ...Fr. Hunwicke has <a href="http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/pentecost-time.html" rel="nofollow">written some pertinent words</a>: 'The Vigil disappeared under Pius XII; we should never forget that the disintegration of the Classical Roman Rite has Pius XII for its godfather. The 'Council' and its aftermath merely formed a logical progression of what Pius XII and Mgr Bugnini and others had already enthusiastically set rolling in the 1950s.'<br /><br />Why anyone wants to hang up a picture of Papa Pacelli baffles me - except to use as dart board.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-14515039069237616832015-05-28T14:15:18.402-05:002015-05-28T14:15:18.402-05:00I think His All Tradiness should do a post/series ...I think His All Tradiness should do a post/series on the Thuc-line validity. YouTube has video of a debate from early last decade between Fr. Cekada (pro-Thuc) and Fr. William Jenkins (SSPV, anti-Thuc). Evidently, there was (and still is) a lot of bad blood between current and former members of the SSPV over this very issue. The debate was had to deal with the issue of withholding Communion from parishioners at the SSPV based on their attending a pro-Thuc chapel. Anyone an entirely different topic, but the liturgical praxes of the two branches of the original Nine also could make for interesting series of posts.Joanneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00496552906164909711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-33079435361078974822015-05-27T15:50:15.073-05:002015-05-27T15:50:15.073-05:00SGG, Bp. Dolan, Fr. Cekada, etc. are an odd mix - ...SGG, Bp. Dolan, Fr. Cekada, etc. are an odd mix - they ignore Pacelli on most things liturgical (although I would guess they use Signum Magnum rather than Gaudeamus, for example), but they love the "doctrinal Pacelli," and have a huge framed portrait of him in the vestibule.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13240425842855092083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-56402713419601344682015-05-27T15:48:32.360-05:002015-05-27T15:48:32.360-05:00Well be pedantic if you must, but "the Church...Well be pedantic if you must, but "the Church" has never said they are ipso facto invalid, and think of sedes what you might, if you go by the roman rules of validity, the lineage from Thuc to Dolan seems to be valid.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13240425842855092083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-79629802464822347482015-05-27T15:21:58.737-05:002015-05-27T15:21:58.737-05:00I'm usually the last to make excuses for the r...I'm usually the last to make excuses for the reverend clergy, but liturgical vestments and ecclesiastical haberdashery can be very expensive. If a bishop--even a very well-intentioned one--solemnly celebrates the E.F. (ugh!) once or twice a year, that's a lot of money.<br /><br />Parishes can supply some more generic items, but fitted garments are trickier.Paul Goingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06479425203740052841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-83820836768558674472015-05-27T14:14:39.993-05:002015-05-27T14:14:39.993-05:00Konstantin,
Trains on prelatial choir cassocks we...Konstantin,<br /><br />Trains on prelatial choir cassocks were abolished by Papa Pacelli. Those of the Cardinals went first closely followed by other prelates along with some of the seasonal attire. Good to see Bishop Dolan wearing the proper thing although I do wish he would develop an interest in apparelled albs...Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-4565616021132184912015-05-27T12:45:56.026-05:002015-05-27T12:45:56.026-05:00Thuc line orders are an odd thing. Some are almos...Thuc line orders are an odd thing. Some are almost definitely valid while many others aren't so certain. I think there's even a debate on youtube somewhere between Kelly and Cekada (two of the infamous "Nazgul") over the issue.Ecclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-53086353663436241802015-05-27T12:32:59.055-05:002015-05-27T12:32:59.055-05:00Fr. Dolan is the sedevacantist bishop celebrating ...Fr. Dolan is the sedevacantist bishop celebrating the Mass (see the last image). I call him Father since the Church says the members of the sedevacantist clergy are to be considered to belong to the state in which they were before receiving Thuc-line orders. Maybe I'm a bit pedantic.Konstantinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13701303189143549671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-54880999169226916352015-05-27T07:54:07.610-05:002015-05-27T07:54:07.610-05:00Perhaps because orthopraxis is not an important ma...Perhaps because orthopraxis is not an important matter for many of them. Just do something which somehow looks like traditional, use it as a mere banner, and forget about everything else. We have already discussed it here more than once...<br /><br />Konstantin: I'm pretty ignorant of those details of liturgical ornaments, so may I ask you in which image does the cassok you describe appear? I cannot identify it. (I don't even know who is Fr. Dolan) Thank you.Ἰουστινιανόςhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00853873178362328543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-41876907215571852902015-05-26T18:32:17.104-05:002015-05-26T18:32:17.104-05:00Probably for the same reason that so-called "...Probably for the same reason that so-called "trad" Cardinals do not wear the correct cassocks at the right time of year. They only care about some of these things...Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13240425842855092083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-44162762912144834022015-05-26T18:31:18.446-05:002015-05-26T18:31:18.446-05:00I am not, actually; I was on vacation and planned ...I am not, actually; I was on vacation and planned it such that I would drive through there and have the opportunity to attend a beautiful, fully-celebrated pre-55 Rite on one of the days where the Traditional Rite and the Pacellian could not be more different.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13240425842855092083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-35257355703771277162015-05-26T18:30:05.424-05:002015-05-26T18:30:05.424-05:00Well, I was more referring to Konstantine's hy...Well, I was more referring to Konstantine's hypothesized choice, since the question does not bother me so. In any case, I appreciate the invitation! And it is wonderful to hear that the full ceremonies of Holy Week will be observed in your neck of the woods!Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13240425842855092083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-62671307076839872932015-05-26T15:05:25.909-05:002015-05-26T15:05:25.909-05:00Matthew, if you get to Southern NJ next year, you ...Matthew, if you get to Southern NJ next year, you won't have to make that choice! Both all of Holy Week and the Pentecost Vigil.Joanneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00496552906164909711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-74480878573116250832015-05-26T13:56:55.467-05:002015-05-26T13:56:55.467-05:00I'm not sure whether this belongs here or in t...I'm not sure whether this belongs here or in the Liturgical Boutique: Fr. Dolan is wearing a cassock with a trail which I only had seen once before in a picture of the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem celebrating Mass at the Holy Sepulchre. So I did some research and found out that this was a "Chortalar" (choir cassock) which was abolished in 1969. Can anyone explain why this liturgical vestment isn't used in Pontifical Masses according to the 1962 Missal? The usual arguments for chapel veils and no female altar servers goes something like this: "well, they did this / didn't do this in 1962, so we do / don't do this"...any explanation? And what is its proper name in English?Konstantinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13701303189143549671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-25352938691421666202015-05-25T20:27:51.606-05:002015-05-25T20:27:51.606-05:00Matthew,
Since it seems like you are from Ohio, I...Matthew,<br /><br />Since it seems like you are from Ohio, I must ask you where you would recommend going for a Sunday TLM in Cleveland. I have seen pictures of St. Stephen's and Immaculate Conception and they are just wonderful!Solitary Sojourning https://www.blogger.com/profile/12091161291027576112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-45075274779659123442015-05-25T20:12:40.695-05:002015-05-25T20:12:40.695-05:00It is doubtless a pity to have to choose.It is doubtless a pity to have to choose.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13240425842855092083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-84972269974558021952015-05-25T04:40:01.716-05:002015-05-25T04:40:01.716-05:00Hmm, although I am rather sympathetic to them and ...Hmm, although I am rather sympathetic to them and wish I could attend their liturgy if it weren't for the Atlantic Ocean and their canonical position dividing us, the stakes are just too high. I'd rather stick to my 1962 "Una Cum" Masses.Konstantinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13701303189143549671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-1761490543804313202015-05-24T17:50:59.600-05:002015-05-24T17:50:59.600-05:00I was also able to bring home some blessed Penteco...I was also able to bring home some blessed Pentecost water :) as they graciously made it available in the church lobby following Mass.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13240425842855092083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-56019960863644954922015-05-24T14:21:11.992-05:002015-05-24T14:21:11.992-05:00St. Gertrude the Great in Westchester county, in O...St. Gertrude the Great in Westchester county, in Ohio.<br /><br />Not a sedevacantist (not even close), but if a liturgically correct chapel of their's was in my vicinity, I would probably attend for a few of major days that differ from the Pacellian and Pauline novelties to experience the difference (Holy Week, Pentecost, a few octaves).The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-11344398375128226432015-05-24T14:12:56.026-05:002015-05-24T14:12:56.026-05:00Same place as the pictures above.Same place as the pictures above.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13240425842855092083noreply@blogger.com