tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post5871030072870316585..comments2024-03-12T04:14:16.271-05:00Comments on The Rad Trad: After the Reformation VI: the BaroqueThe Rad Tradhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-82245135643669535852017-10-08T09:53:33.766-05:002017-10-08T09:53:33.766-05:00I'm a bit more closeminded on that question. Y...I'm a bit more closeminded on that question. Yes, "de gustibus", but again, only to a certain extent, since if gustus is everything, then Le Corbusier or Mattisse have a right to have their church architecture to be considered beautiful, which is a right i'm very wont to give them.Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-1605498494728633212017-10-08T07:14:16.333-05:002017-10-08T07:14:16.333-05:00"Thank you for reminding me." No problem..."Thank you for reminding me." No problem!<br /> <br />I think we're back to "de gustibus non est disputandum." But surely there's room in the Church for both the austerity of Heiligen Kreuz and the splendor of Vierzehn Heiligen, don't you think?<br />Capreolushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07329413913112615954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-13922962228309448552017-10-06T23:28:19.963-05:002017-10-06T23:28:19.963-05:00I should've probably been clearer when i'v...I should've probably been clearer when i've said art. Yes, art is such a broad concept. Thank you for reminding me.<br /><br />So let me reformulate.<br />Something so inconsequential to Christianity as is religious art (and in this particular moment i mean architecture, painting and sculpture) which seeks to be more "artistic" or excessively beautiful with too lively colors and figurines and elements that jump out of the main body of the composition, art which (almost violently) seeks attention of the viewer (without prejudice to whether it attempts to divert that attention to God or not).<br /><br />I think that, churches shouldn't be ugly, but that they don't need to be extraordinary. They need to be ordinary but not in such a way so that the one who comes in is repelled by the ordinariness.<br /><br />Think of it as choosing a wife in terms of looks. A most prudent choice of a wife would be the one who is not ugly, so as to repel even in spite of reproductive needs, and who is not such a beauty as to entice lust.Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-21257293746424036982017-10-06T21:27:45.277-05:002017-10-06T21:27:45.277-05:00Marko,
Thought-provoking argument! "Art"...Marko,<br />Thought-provoking argument! "Art" is very broad, and taken in its broadest sense, art would be difficult, I think, to untangle from Christianity. St. Bernard certainly employed a very beautiful, even exquisite, art in the form of rhetoric in his profoundly touching sermons (for instance, the seventh lesson at Matins for the feast tomorrow: the B.V.M. as a white and red rose). St. Paul's epistles are not only a font of revelation but revelation cloaked in wonderful rhetoric (e.g., 1 Cor. 4: 10 et seqq.).<br /> <br />Still, as you suggest, anything fashioned by man will have limitations (sometimes severe ones!) and must eventually fall away in the "dark night of the senses."<br /><br />P.S. Good use of American slang!Capreolushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07329413913112615954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-70356143622435088112017-10-06T15:58:39.883-05:002017-10-06T15:58:39.883-05:00Musically speaking, I love the Spanish Baroque com...Musically speaking, I love the Spanish Baroque composer Juan Garcia de Salazar's rendition of Our Lady's Little Office, esp. his motet based on the (post-Urban VIII) Lauds hymn "O gloriosa virginum" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-9ceVyYBWE - and his version of Ps 112 (Laudate pueri Dominum), Gregorian plainchant mixed with organ verses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM9qYE5xoMkTom B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07289474788868616380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-3404983951228796172017-10-05T21:20:26.449-05:002017-10-05T21:20:26.449-05:00Mirai,
Thanks for reading! I agree that, by defini...Mirai,<br />Thanks for reading! I agree that, by definition, a Baroque-only (or Gothic-only, or Art Nouveau-only) attitude is not Catholic. I suppose that personally I am inclined to think of the Baroque--like the Gothic or some other styles--as truly Catholic, in that it can be suitably used for the entire gamut of Catholic life, from the little six-man Franciscan chapel in Greccio, to the austere life of the Carthusians in Parma, to a great metropolitan cathedral. Of course, the Baroque is not alone in being universal in this way.<br /> <br />As for temptations to vanity, I suppose that's a possibility. Personally, when I see beautiful vestments or altar furnishings, I think: That's a beautiful thing for God. With all the emphasis on "pastoral simplicity" since the Council, I've always been a little wary of seeing plainness in vestments, etc., as a sign of humility. That attitude seems more like a subtle temptation against it.Capreolushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07329413913112615954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-54487467915334379362017-10-05T15:12:03.377-05:002017-10-05T15:12:03.377-05:00I would preface this comment that good ornamental ...I would preface this comment that good ornamental church architecture, especially if we deal with huge altar superstructures, shouldn't be made out of wood.<br /><br />We, Croatians, have our best representative of baroque, Ivan Ranger OSPPE, and it is a "meh" at best.<br /><br />Spanish gothic and baroque in general are bad, mkay? <br />Jokes aside, if an argument can be made that the readings in the Mass take away the attention from the Sacrifice (an absolutely silly argument which has been made in the now typical "novus ordo bad hurr durr" NLM fashion), couldn't even a stronger argument be made that something so unsubstantial to Christianity as is religious art can be a hurdle rather than a jumping board in spirituality? I know st. Bernard has made that argument and for a time i hated the fact that, in my experience, he was right. I can certainly remember my thoughts wander off many times when i was looking at frescoes of the history of salvation in Djakovo Cathedral...Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-35860493714951988862017-10-05T13:10:19.426-05:002017-10-05T13:10:19.426-05:00Perhaps one day they will return, but comments nee...Perhaps one day they will return, but comments need to cool off for a while first.<br /><br />Baroque can be beautiful, but as I have said elsewhere on this blog, it is very expensive and difficult to do well in a parish setting. Bernini is dead and the number of active sculptors (real ones, not modern artists) is so limited as to render quality statuary in an even an upper class American parish cost prohibitive. That's when we get stuck with painted plaster statues that belong in the gift shop. I think the Greek, Roman, and (artistic, not architectural) features of images and icons more approachable at the parish level without looking cheap or kitsch, which is a real problem at say FSSP type churches. <br /><br />This is a really illuminating article, especially in the points about sacred music. Many composers set the Office hymns in vernacular just as they had been sung folkishly in vernacular during the medieval period. Much to think about here.The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-85335851402131362702017-10-05T03:56:16.586-05:002017-10-05T03:56:16.586-05:00Off topic: I miss the time when I can see my comme...Off topic: I miss the time when I can see my comments immediately after publishing it. It gives me a sense of excitement and accomplishment. I live in fear that what I think is on point is dismissed, and dismissed without a written reason by an unseen hand. Parrhesia! Down with the moderated comments policy! Long live the discussion that branches out organically!Mirai Kuriyamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17174962279656191952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-44437219521565173992017-10-05T03:48:41.302-05:002017-10-05T03:48:41.302-05:00Thumbs up.
As much as I visually prefer the Early...Thumbs up.<br /><br />As much as I visually prefer the Early Western Medieval artistic vehicle (the usual visual examples of the Baroque hurts my eyes), I think that the Baroque was the best vehicle for its time, though, as in all things, the style fell in...um...degeneration(?). <br /><br />Anyway, I agree with your main point, since no style arises from a vacuum. I also think that ecclesiastical "propagandists" would make use of what they are familiar with or what they have been trained with to spread the official Counter-Reformation "party line" to the best that they can.<br /><br />What I don't agree is that the Baroque should be "the ideal artistic vehicle for the expression of the traditional Mass." I think it won't effectively convey what the traditional Mass is (various articles defending the fine vestments and liturgical vessels is a sign that TLM supporters are still vulnerable to charges of vanity), TLM supporters (especially clerics) might fall prey to some sort of Baroque-only mentality that might cause more trouble in the already troubled Traditionalist community, and that it hurts my eyes. A more restrained artistic vehicle might win more people for the cause, since it can psychologically ease the transition from the NO to the TLM setting.Mirai Kuriyamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17174962279656191952noreply@blogger.com