tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post7893182052619399666..comments2024-03-12T04:14:16.271-05:00Comments on The Rad Trad: Roman FeastsThe Rad Tradhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-35815688608767073652015-08-01T05:01:02.445-05:002015-08-01T05:01:02.445-05:00While we're on digressions, has anyone ever wo...While we're on digressions, has anyone ever wondered about the age of those prayers in the Baptismal rite which end in "..qui venturus est judicare vivos et mortuos et saecula per ignem."?Marco da Vinhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06092410765851812842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-87409247174829026362015-07-30T14:50:38.970-05:002015-07-30T14:50:38.970-05:00If I am allowed to break into this digression (a b...If I am allowed to break into this digression (a beloved one, from my point of view), I think it would be interesting to compare the Doxology tones as found in the current Pauline missal with those in the 1965 booklet <i>Cantus qui in Missali Romano desiderantur</i> where you can find the new tones for the Secret, the Embolism after the Pater Noster, the new Prayer of the Faithful, the final Doxology and the central part of the Canon (the latter are for use only in concelebrations). <br /><br />I still have no copy of it, but my exemplar of the concelebration booklet from the same year also has the Canon and Doxology tones (there are two of each one, if I remember well). Sadly I have not it at hand, son I cannot tell you how "prefacial" they are.<br /><br />I must beg pardon from His Traddiness, too, for contributing to this digression.Ἰουστινιανόςhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00853873178362328543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-7621517144935678342015-07-30T03:28:19.484-05:002015-07-30T03:28:19.484-05:00Yes. The unity of the preface and the Canon is the...Yes. The unity of the preface and the Canon is the strongest suggestion that the Canon was sung. Also you're not alone in your claim. I've found some book of an anglican author, Occasions of grace, which claims the same thing, somewhere where it describes the rite of marriage in western and eastern Church.<br /><br />Also, one could look to the melody of the final doxology of the Missal of Paul VI which is also in the preface tone, which is weird since the melodies for the EP's are not in that tone but in the tone of Gloria XV, which is still compatible with the tone of the preface.<br /><br />I wonder whether they just concocted that doxology melody out of thin air or they found some ancient manuscript. If they did, that would be direct proof of the sung Canon.<br /><br />I am sorry. I always spam your comment sections with off topics lol.Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-38387477081899255662015-07-29T22:48:43.526-05:002015-07-29T22:48:43.526-05:00I presume you mean in ancient times rather than th...I presume you mean in ancient times rather than the sung settings for the Paul VI Mass. It was sung, presumably, in the same tone as the preface. <br /><br />The Ordo Romanus I generally assumes anything said is sung, denoting the exceptions ("the pontiff says the Secret prayer in an undertone"). It states that the Pontiff *begins* the Canon in an undertone when the choir sings the Sanctus, which would suggest that when they are done, he resumes singing it aloud, as he had the preface (very similar to what most Byzantine churches do). The Ordo Romanus I describes Papal Mass around the year 800. Older sources, like the Gelasian sacramentary (only a few generations older), describe the Canon beginning at the Sursum corda of the preface dialogue, meaning that the rest of the dialogue, the preface, and the Sanctus are all part of the Canon (as an aside, it would also mean that the Roman Canon does have a direct element of praise and thanksgiving in the preface—if only the reformers saw it that way); all these elements are sung, so it would only make sense that the rest of what that book says is the Canon is also sung. <br /><br />The tones of the Mass, particularly the preface, predate the Middle Ages by centuries. The religious instinct of the Church has always been to sing. Spoken prayer is the result of private devotions on the part of the clergy becoming a normal liturgical element—not always a bad thing, but the point is that spoken prayer postdates sung prayer by leaps of time.The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-86069305776605440072015-07-29T13:29:45.850-05:002015-07-29T13:29:45.850-05:00Great post TRT.
Another off topic question from m...Great post TRT.<br /><br />Another off topic question from me lol. Do you have any sources or resources on the sung Canon?Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-14152284959711255982015-07-28T06:17:01.020-05:002015-07-28T06:17:01.020-05:00An excellent and most interesting Post, The Rad Tr...An excellent and most interesting Post, The Rad Trad.<br /><br />Thank you.Zephyrinushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01179350648709554049noreply@blogger.com