tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post9110939321860111267..comments2024-03-12T04:14:16.271-05:00Comments on The Rad Trad: Ancient Roman OfficeThe Rad Tradhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-16629377108291623312017-08-23T09:05:48.776-05:002017-08-23T09:05:48.776-05:00Dear The Rad Trad. I have, once more, read with ve...Dear The Rad Trad. I have, once more, read with very great interest this magnificent Article. Thank you.<br /><br />Having recently purchased "The History Of The Roman Breviary", by Batiffol, I find it a perfect complement to your "Tour de Force", herewith.<br /><br />Having implemented "The Liturgical Boutique", the other year, may I, respectfully, suggest that you consider implementing "The Rad Trad Liturgical University" ? With Articles such as this one, you will have myriad applicants wishing to be enrolled.<br /><br />in Domino.Zephyrinushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01179350648709554049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-42020400117914370882013-08-07T17:30:17.869-05:002013-08-07T17:30:17.869-05:00My own suspicion is that the old psalter was reall...My own suspicion is that the old psalter was really as tidy as you say. Lauds probably always had psalms 148-150, which are really the integral parts of that hour (and why I cannot fathom why Pius X saw fit to remove them!). Mattins and Vespers probably just plunged straight through psalms 1-108 and 109-147 respectively without any consideration for the time or occasion. The Commons most certainly came later and, given the psalms used in them, are based primarily on Sunday's psalmody (itself a weekly celebration of the Resurrection). Consider the Tenebrae psalms again. The Holy Week days are among the most important of the year and those days, if any, one would think it appropriate to come up with special offices. But the Romans did not, instead just progressing through the psalter without interruption.<br /><br />I guess the two main things we do not know about the older Roman Office are: (1) what lessons were sung—which we will most certainly never know and (2) what were those mini-Offices for feasts that the monks and canons of St. Peter's ignored. <br /><br />I could not tell you about the responses and whether Solesmes has copies, but there certainly resources from Amalarius and others of the period. The "Responsorialia et Antiphonaria Romanae Ecclesiae" is out there, too, if you want a look.The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-57112824382585311882013-08-03T09:43:43.909-05:002013-08-03T09:43:43.909-05:00(I mean my theory is crazy, but not John at the Cu...(I mean my theory is crazy, but not John at the Current Ordo). PseudonymousposterJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12026854581183874101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-18640596058673032862013-08-03T09:41:58.066-05:002013-08-03T09:41:58.066-05:00A superb post about the older office. Thank-you.
...A superb post about the older office. Thank-you.<br /><br />So, I want to ask: <br /><br />What don’t we know about the old office?<br /><br />Arrangement of pss first springs to mind. <br />I was always suspicious of the ‘Old’ Roman Psalter – it is too neat and of course all seven hours and the nocturns are included when we know the night office with its bookends evening and morning was the original office, as you have confirmed. <br />The psalms must have been moved from their earliest uses.<br /><br />I assume the Lauds pss are the oldest survival; 62 and 66 and then 148-150 daily, and the Miserere on all ferias. <br /><br />I then further assume that the rest of the pss were chiefly sung during the nocturns with the exception of, what, for vespers? Was the original evening office marked by a nearly orderly course through the one hundreds? Or is that a later tidying up and there was once a picking of psalms according to other criteria as in the case of specific days and some commons? I think it has been said elsewhere that the Sunday pss were used on feasts to allow for greater popular knowledge. <br />What did they used to pick instead? <br /><br />I rely on some things said in the introduction to the Anglican Breviary from the early fifties – Pius X psalter and kalendar – preserving the pre-1955 forms. <br />Do we still accept the outline of the history of the major hours given there, with the Little Chapter as a priest’s blessing as he entered AFTER the pss? <br />I note you say the pope left the vigil early. It seems the major clergy were not expected to sit through the whole thing in church, but their entrance was marked. <br />The normal per annum Little Chapter is not unlike the Blessing at the beginning of all public worship in the Byzantine rite. It is the specific forms that are out of step. I suppose there may have been other Scripture in the offices too, but really, wasn’t that all in the nocturns? <br /><br />Also from the AB I took the idea that the original meaning of simples and doubles. I still like the definition of the semi-double as the characteristic rite of Sundays with the ferial office with something extra added for the Lord’s Day – hence semi-double.<br />This would leave the meaning of the simple office to be the normal basic version but the double to mean one twice as long, with the ferial office still said and the saint’s material added to it. That does seem to be what the words suggest. I think that is what you said. My extended theory was that all those early martyred popes that The Current Ordo wanted to eliminate were once the major days of the cult at Rome when they were celebrated and not the ferial day. How crazy is that? <br /><br /><br /><br />Have we got the Responsary chants back with the Nocturnale containing the plainchant from Solesmes?<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br />PseudonymousposterJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12026854581183874101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-28792587613922554422013-07-31T17:08:53.628-05:002013-07-31T17:08:53.628-05:00Fr. Finigan, thank you for reading!Fr. Finigan, thank you for reading!The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-80315700763058987672013-07-30T06:32:23.669-05:002013-07-30T06:32:23.669-05:00A most interesting article and thank you for featu...A most interesting article and thank you for featuring Blackfen.FatherTFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11451700981977182260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-33213489173923272132013-07-30T00:51:59.635-05:002013-07-30T00:51:59.635-05:00An excellent Post and extremely interesting.
Nic...An excellent Post and extremely interesting. <br /><br />Nice surprise to see Fr. Finigan and the Blackfen Sanctuary illustrated in your First-Class Article !!!<br /><br />You state, quite rightly, how lucky we all are to be Blessed with such Divine Liturgy at Blackfen.<br /><br />Many Thanks.<br />Zephyrinushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01179350648709554049noreply@blogger.com