tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post1600623680602411202..comments2024-03-12T04:14:16.271-05:00Comments on The Rad Trad: Roman and Byzantine Triduum (repost with new material)The Rad Tradhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-27354335838231268432014-04-16T01:03:43.293-05:002014-04-16T01:03:43.293-05:00Thank you very much!
Can the Lucernarium cerimony...Thank you very much!<br /><br />Can the Lucernarium cerimony be found in the (pre-Pius XII) Roman Breviary, or must I search in another book? Thank you one more time!<br /><br />I wish you a truly happy and HOLY Triduum, and a holier Pascha!<br /><br />Kyrie eleisonἸουστινιανόςhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00853873178362328543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-86733569252889778962014-04-11T10:15:37.322-05:002014-04-11T10:15:37.322-05:00Thank you, Rubricarius, for that wonderful explana...Thank you, Rubricarius, for that wonderful explanation. It might also be worth saying that the Mass/Divine Liturgy is the real interpolation on Holy Saturday and not the other rites. In the Byzantine rite the prophecies, Baptism, and Vespers were done in concatenation and the Divine Liturgy was used as a glue to bind the three, hence why the epistle in the Vesperal Liturgy of St Basil is the same as the one read at any Byzantine Baptism. I suspect the Mass in the Roman Holy Saturday had the same purpose at first: it ended the catechumenate and *anticipated* the Resurrection.<br /><br />The deposition and resurrection ceremonies varied from region to region. It is still done in some parts of Poland and in the Latin rite at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem. References to how it was done in Sarum can be found on pp 156 and 174 here: http://books.google.com/books?id=cyUBAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=sarum+missal+in+english+pearson&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EQVIU5ekJKn68QHZ74CoAQ&ved=0CDcQ6wEwAA#v=onepage&q=sarum%20missal%20in%20english%20pearson&f=false More was probably sung during those rites than is given in the text. Here is a more complete Latin version (pp 333 and 357) that has a procession and a specific hymn for the resurrection rite before Mattins and Lauds: http://books.google.com/books?id=-r9FAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=missale+ad+usum+sarum&hl=en&sa=X&ei=swZIU7iRK4jA8QHe94GoCw&ved=0CCwQ6wEwAA#v=onepage&q=missale%20ad%20usum%20sarum&f=false<br /><br />Hope that helps!The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-13529091445336585762014-04-11T09:32:27.251-05:002014-04-11T09:32:27.251-05:00I think they confused Paschal Orthros with what th...I think they confused Paschal Orthros with what they, in the West, were then doing on Holy Saturday morning. There is a wonderful article in 'The Furrow' (sorry I can't give you the reference as I am typing this at work) from the early 1950s praising the new Easter Vigil and stating that Holy Saturday (morning) will now be as quiet as in a Greek church. The author clearly had no understanding of the Vesperal Liturgy of St. Basil and had probably visited a Greek church on Western Holy Saturday when the dates of Pascha were different.<br /><br />The Roman liturgy preserved the old Lucernarium at Vespers whilst the Byzantine rite moved the light ceremony to Mattins. I don't think there is any doubt that Paschal Orthros is a sublime and brilliant celebration of the Resurrection. Sadly the reformers wanted to equate the ancient Roman Holy Saturday service with that when really it is very clearly about the culmination of the path the adult catechumens had taken during Lent culminating in their symbolic death and resurrection in Baptism.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-30365994351772709022014-04-09T17:08:51.021-05:002014-04-09T17:08:51.021-05:00An overwhelming, but loving article! It is strikin...An overwhelming, but loving article! It is striking how the traditional liturgies focuses on the same important matters, and in a striking similar way!! I cannot actually realize how did the Pian reformers find any support to their destructions - do you know something of this?<br /><br />On the other hand, I would like to post some questions which spur me.<br /><br />1) Where can we find the rubrics and ceremonies of the rites of deposition (Good Friday) and new elevation of the Cross (Holy Saturday evening)? I would like to study them closer, because I didn't know they were still performed by 1950.<br /><br />2) The lighting of the people's candles reminds me strikingly to the lightning of the candles in the Pian Paschal Vigil. Is it just my imagination, or could it exist (in ancient times) some Roman parallel to the Byzantine ceremony in the Mattins, which the reformers wrongly interpreted as a part of an ancient midnight Vigil, and so they inserted it in the new rite?<br /><br />Perhaps it would be so interesting to compare also the Triduum rites from Ambrosian, Aquileian, Mozarabic, Bragan, Norman and "Gallican" liturgies - though it would require a pretty long time!<br /><br />Thank you for the post.<br />Kyrie eleisonἸουστινιανόςhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00853873178362328543noreply@blogger.com