tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post2197916311107103424..comments2024-03-12T04:14:16.271-05:00Comments on The Rad Trad: Liturgical Reform in the Orthodox ChurchThe Rad Tradhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-23719109480281925092015-11-29T15:53:56.735-06:002015-11-29T15:53:56.735-06:00The $64,000 ecumenical question about the only ecu...The $64,000 ecumenical question about the only ecumenism that really matters to us Catholics, that of bringing these estranged Catholics home: will they hold their first ecumenical council in centuries (they count our first seven as theirs plus some count two more) and if they do, would they imitate Vatican II by modernizing their services? That's easy to scoff at given Orthodox cultures' famous conservatism but 1) their fundamental flaw is they confuse the church with their tribe; the church goes along with the tribe's values; and 2) they've already sold out on divorce and remarriage (their theology here is illogical: sometimes adultery is OK), centuries ago, and, more recently, on contraception.Ecgberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06354592772973677609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-78584392831645844502015-11-23T15:34:19.620-06:002015-11-23T15:34:19.620-06:00Eh... I think it's one of those "In their...Eh... I think it's one of those "In their position I'd have done the same thing" incidents. The Orthodox back then seem to have been ok with more a fluid diaspora and didn't go down the rabbit hole of childish "jurisdiction" poo-flinging.<br /><br />The worst Catholic bashers I've seen are the OCA in my neck of the woods. They are primarily composed of convertodox bubba-dox from baptist/pentecostal backgrounds who bring their anti-Catholicism into their new home.Ecclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-43393099904431054552015-11-23T14:23:37.478-06:002015-11-23T14:23:37.478-06:00That would be the OCA which is descended from Toth...That would be the OCA which is descended from Toth's Ruthenians. ACROD was formed after Rome prohibited the Eastern Catholic Churches from ordaining married men to the priesthood in the diaspora. I'm not agreeing with the politics involved that led to their formation, just stating that I found ACROD most welcoming of outsiders of any Orthodox parish I have visited. They also aren't obsessed with bashing Catholics at coffee hour as I've heard many Orthodox do in parishes of other jurisdictions. At least the ACROD parish near me doesn't.<br /><br />AnthonyUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05192594580249914996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-70562057147100852462015-11-23T13:59:31.286-06:002015-11-23T13:59:31.286-06:00Really? Aren't they basically descended from ...Really? Aren't they basically descended from those Ruthenians who followed Alexis Toth?Ecclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-68015705164833162442015-11-23T13:54:00.431-06:002015-11-23T13:54:00.431-06:00If Father Robert Taft had his way, the Byzantine R...If Father Robert Taft had his way, the Byzantine Rite Churches, Catholic and Orthodox would undergo the same "reform" as the Latin Church in the late 60's. I believe he had a hand in the Revised Divine Liturgy of the Ruthenian Catholic Church. He must not of had too much input, as it wasn't as great anoverhaul as he probably would have liked. He is comes across as very obnoxious and acts like a complete know it all in all his interviews.<br /><br />Anthony. Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05192594580249914996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-30001295068279413002015-11-23T13:48:36.381-06:002015-11-23T13:48:36.381-06:00The American Carpatho-Russian Diocese is the least...The American Carpatho-Russian Diocese is the least ethnic jurisdiction in the US in my experience.<br /><br />AnthonyUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05192594580249914996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-59768125326394888522015-11-22T08:38:20.945-06:002015-11-22T08:38:20.945-06:00It is quite possible, but again, that might be som...It is quite possible, but again, that might be something more easily accomplished in more fungible, small communities. What troubles me is the emphasis that the static nature of the Greek Liturgy is problematic, not the popular level of interest. <br /><br />Taft made a remark on peasants' need for stability in prior times; Sr Vassa remarked on the issue of people going to Confession or lighting candles rather than listening to anaphora. It reminded me of the 20th century Roman reformers, who complained about Confession during Sunday Masses and old women praying their rosaries; while the situation wasn't ideal, was the reformed Mass really the solution, or was the original, gradual praxis of the Liturgical Movement the solution?The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-13177717401541746832015-11-22T08:31:03.050-06:002015-11-22T08:31:03.050-06:00Children must want to sit on Super K's lap and...Children must want to sit on Super K's lap and tell him what they want for Christmas!<br /><br />The danger with the aforementioned "coldly clinical" view is that once one discovers the origin of something in the liturgy, one is tempted to say it is an unnecessary accretion that can be done away with, as was done with the Roman liturgy at three stages in the 20th century.The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-57586365291648784052015-11-22T07:36:42.244-06:002015-11-22T07:36:42.244-06:00Oops! Read oddities for 'odd'.Oops! Read oddities for 'odd'.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-62161568431257206722015-11-22T07:35:52.405-06:002015-11-22T07:35:52.405-06:00Is it not a similar view to that expressed about t...Is it not a similar view to that expressed about the Roman liturgy by men such as Bishop, Fortescue, Thurston etc? They looked at what they perceived as peculiarities and wanted to rationalise them. Jungmann was one of the later ones with a very precise yet coldly clinical view of its odd then reform it. I must say I have never seen 'Super K' in civvies before.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-89195242835416970142015-11-21T21:59:53.277-06:002015-11-21T21:59:53.277-06:00I am only speaking from the perspective of a Roman...I am only speaking from the perspective of a Roman but why do so many want change, change, change? Why can't we simply worship the same way that our Fathers in Faith did? Solitary Sojourning https://www.blogger.com/profile/12091161291027576112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-54923713839000655052015-11-21T17:36:37.311-06:002015-11-21T17:36:37.311-06:00Already in the 1970s the Byzantinist Christopher W...Already in the 1970s the Byzantinist Christopher Walker adviced the Orthodox Churches to get rid of iconostasis and embrace a new rite similar to the Pauline Mass. I also remember a discussion in an Argentinian blog on the Holy Saturday demolition by Pius XII: while both me and my opponent drew parallels between the (traditional) Roman and Byzantine Vesperal liturgies, he cited a Byzantine (I don't remember if he was Greek or Russian) clerck who promoted a similar destruction on the Byzantine Holy Saturday rites.<br /><br />It seems that, since liturgical scolarship arose in the last 150 years, "reforming" the ancient liturgies is something like a temptation. And this is probably maximized by the common arrogancy of academic circles.<br /><br />On the other hand, my knowledge of the Orthodox world is almost inexistent, but it seems to me that these lines of thinking are still minoritary. Perhaps they still have the chance not to become infested and not to repeat the errors we committed decades ago.<br /><br />K. e.Ἰουστινιανόςhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00853873178362328543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-7060049272508948592015-11-21T00:56:36.719-06:002015-11-21T00:56:36.719-06:00To offer some balance to your remarks, RT, I proff...To offer some balance to your remarks, RT, I proffer for your consideration the liturgical renewal going on in a little OCA parish in Virginia, outside Washington, DC. Fr Robert Taft spoke there a few years ago; his short speech was recorded: https://vimeo.com/27406618. I direct you to their website: http://www.holytrinityvirginia.org/. Their tagline is "Drawn to Father Alexander Schmemann's vision, Holy Trinity works for that 'rebirth of the liturgical life of the Church,' he called for <br />in Liturgy and Life, 'its better understanding by the faithful, a more responsible attitude to it, a more active participation in it.'" Perhaps what they're doing at Holy Trinity is what authentic liturgical reform among the Orthodox should and will look like.A. T. Wallacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02816243030572765014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-10266874033777292392015-11-21T00:48:11.285-06:002015-11-21T00:48:11.285-06:00Ethnocentrism is what has killed or stagnated many...Ethnocentrism is what has killed or stagnated many Eastern churches. If there was more emphasis on spreading the word of God rather than maintenance or culture (Greek, Slavic, Romanian, etc.), Eastern Christianity could step up to fill a great spiritual void. So far the only Orthodox church in the US that seems to attempt this in any moderately successful way is the Antiochian Church. The Eastern Catholic churches tend to be very welcoming to any outsiders who do come, but are hard to come by and are little known.<br /><br />"O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal values of purity, poverty, asceticism, humility and forgiveness; a Church which has often not known how to act, but which can sing of the joy of Pascha like no other!"<br />-Lev GilletEcclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.com