tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post6172281340675214471..comments2024-03-12T04:14:16.271-05:00Comments on The Rad Trad: Extra EcclesiamThe Rad Tradhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-10784022526709649482016-05-30T12:53:55.648-05:002016-05-30T12:53:55.648-05:00Honorious apparently wrote many letters (which wer...Honorious apparently wrote many letters (which were destroyed by the Romans and Leo II who anathemized him) which gave full support to false doctrines that other bishops and patriarchs were teaching. It may not be "teaching" in a direct sense, but...<br /><br />Vigilius is a case of a pope who was on the wrong side, and then relented. John XXII did the same thing (preaching public heresy in a sermon) but renounced it on his deathbed. Urban II "incautiously" (to quote 'Lives of the Saints') canonized the murderer Herlembald. Of course, many traditionalists will give anyone who will listen an earful about Paul VI, JP2, and Frankie (and they're not entirely wrong).<br /><br />I think Alphonsus' quote is a symptom of Counter-Reformation Catholicism and the tolerated "useful error" of extreme ultramontanism. Many Catholics, faced with Protestants outright denying the papacy, proceeded to defend everything about it.Ecclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-89693923047672295432016-05-29T21:48:50.271-05:002016-05-29T21:48:50.271-05:00Perhaps. A clearer passage can be found in the se...Perhaps. A clearer passage can be found in the second chapter of Romans:<br /><br />"All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all."Ecclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-43440576944092114702016-05-29T14:07:18.832-05:002016-05-29T14:07:18.832-05:00Again, Mr. J. Grump offers no particular solution ...Again, Mr. J. Grump offers no particular solution to the mystery of the "Extra Ecclesiam" doctrine, and intends this reflection to be more of a spur for apologists to offer a more robustly realistic presentation of the Church to potential converts, than as a precise examination of the doctrine's points. When the "Church" of the "outside the Church" is an idealized church of doctrinal and liturgical purity, it is simpler to fool (yes, fool) people into believing that salvation can only be found within. The messiness of historical reality is a more difficult pill to swallow, even if it is in fact correct that only those churches in communion with Rome can offer salvation.<br /><br />"So I took the book from the angel’s hand and ate it; it was sweet as honey in my mouth, but my belly turned sour once I had eaten it." (Apoc. 10)<br /><br />The truth can be bitter, but it does no one good to pretend it is sweet.J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04821093432726247774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-91269890680762616902016-05-29T07:47:01.342-05:002016-05-29T07:47:01.342-05:00No, but he encouraged the Monothelite heresy by fo...No, but he encouraged the Monothelite heresy by forcing the Catholic side to keep quiet (both sides, but neither kept quiet) and agreeing with Sophronius. Encouraging heresy is equivalent to be heretical.<br /><br />As for that opinion of St. Alphonsus, is there precedent for that? Vigilius was a heretical pope when he was elected, but he later defended orthodoxy against the Emperor Justinian.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08395971347119256329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-29767326625729881262016-05-29T06:48:29.685-05:002016-05-29T06:48:29.685-05:00Why do people keep saying that Honorius is a heret...Why do people keep saying that Honorius is a heretic? From what I have read, he wasn't teaching heretical stuff.Mirai Kuriyamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17174962279656191952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-12352214482308393222016-05-29T05:15:02.766-05:002016-05-29T05:15:02.766-05:00...Osius the bishop said: However it has been agre...<br />...Osius the bishop said: However it has been agreed, that, if a bishop has been accused, and the assembled bishops of the same province have judged and deprived him of his office, and he appears to have appealed, and has taken refuge with the blessed bishop of the Roman Church...<br /><br />St Athanasius 1 398-401 The Orthodoxy of Pope Liberius<br /><br />....Liberius of the Roman Church...<br /><br />The Primacy and the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff (extract from Quamvis Patrum traditio to the African bishops March 21, 418<br /><br />..since therefore Peter the head is of such great authority and that he has confirmed the subsequent endeavors of all our ancestors, so that the Roman Church is fortified..<br /><br />Council of Ephesus 431 : ...as to what rulers of the Roman Church judged...<br /><br /><br />Here is Denzinger's entry #460:<br /><br />Gregory X 1271-1276 Council of Lyons II 1274<br /><br />...The most holy Roman Church<br /><br />#464<br />We believe that the true Church is holy, Catholic, apostolic, and one in which is given holy baptism...This is the true Catholic Faith, and this in the above mentioned articles the most holy Roman Church holds and teaches.<br /><br />#465 The same holy Roman Church...<br /><br />The same Roman Church...<br /><br /># 466 Also this same holy Roman Church holds the highest and complete primacy and spiritual power of the universal Catholic Church...<br /><br />...she receives the other churches to a share of her solicitude, of which many patriarchal churches the same Roman Church has honored in a special way...<br /><br />It is always a good idea for we Catholics to remember the infallible teaching of Vatican 1 - that it is to the Holy See of Peter alone that the promises of Jesus applies vis a vis the gates of Hell not prevailing; that is, literally, every single Church on earth can fail and fall into heresy and even apostasy save the See of PeterMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-13507214654285095952016-05-29T03:09:47.218-05:002016-05-29T03:09:47.218-05:00A gospel passage I read recently may be used in su...A gospel passage I read recently may be used in supporting implicit faith:<br /><br />"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."<br /><br />I suppose by "a word against the Son of Man" you could interpret as any explicit denial of Jesus Christ or His Church, and "speaks against the Holy Spirit" you could interpret as those who deny charity, in word or in deed. So, it is possible to have charity while still speaking against Jesus Christ out of ignorance of the procession of the Holy Spirit from Him.<br /><br />Does this interpretation have any merit?Catholicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03752056093814096521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-39864791529195504452016-05-29T03:04:47.394-05:002016-05-29T03:04:47.394-05:00Vigilante, I think St. Alphonsus still has a point...Vigilante, I think St. Alphonsus still has a point. It's a technical question of the law whether or not the bishops strip a heretical pope of his office, or whether they merely depose someone who has automatically stripped himself of his office.<br /><br />ABS, I am willing to hold to that statement of Pope Leo XIII, but how do we reconcile it with modern ecumenism and with the idea of salvation by implicit faith / invincible ignorance. Are all those who lived and died in a Protestant or Orthodox sect damned? Many saints said so, but the modern opinion is against it. What do you think?Catholicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03752056093814096521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-1237579894247759292016-05-28T13:02:34.734-05:002016-05-28T13:02:34.734-05:00Honorious was condemned for heresy in the Roman ri...Honorious was condemned for heresy in the Roman rite too until the first quarter of the sixteenth century. The old Mattins lessons for the feast of St. Leo include Honorious in the list of heretics. Suddenly his name, as if by magic, was excised from the list.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-77427490376509521422016-05-28T10:55:37.666-05:002016-05-28T10:55:37.666-05:00"The pope as a public office can never fall i..."The pope as a public office can never fall into heresy, and that's why a pope that did publicly and obstinately profess heresy, would immediately show himself to have lost his office, especially if he tries to use his office to enforce his heresy."<br /><br />Neither Honorious or John XXII ceased to be pope when they tried to push through error. Bellarmine even provides for such a scenario by stating that in such circumstances it is the duty of the rest of the Church to rise up and depose the pope. The pope loses the privileges of obedience, he does not cease to be pope until he is no longer Bishop of Rome.<br /><br />This is why "Honorious the Heretic" is emphatically anathemized in both the 6th Ecumenical Council and the Sunday that commemorates it in the Greek Rite.Ecclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-28843594740322848082016-05-28T10:47:15.254-05:002016-05-28T10:47:15.254-05:00There is no salvation out side the Church. But Ch...There is no salvation out side the Church. But Christ provides other ways of entering that we do not understand. God imprited on all men's souls the ability to find the truth. This has always been believed:<br /><br />"To these, however [who have not yet heard of Christ] that general measure of help, which is always given from above to all men, is not denied." St. Prosper of Aquitaine<br /><br />"The books of the prophets and the apostles say that the Church is not only now, but from the beginning. She was spiritual, like also our Jesus. She was manifested in the last days to save us." St Justin Martyr<br /><br />"Her whole life was a purification for her, and a perfecting. She had indeed the regeneration of the Spirit, and the assurance of this from her previous life. And, to speak boldly, the mystery was for her practically only the seal, not the grace." St. Gregory Nazianzus<br /><br />"When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body . . . All who are within in heart are saved in the unity of the ark" <br />"Nor do I think the Jews would dare to argue that no one pertained to God except the Israelites, from the time that Israel came to be... they cannot deny that there were certain men even in other nations who pertained to the true Israelites, the citizens of the fatherland above, not by earthly but by heavenly association." <br />"This very thing which is now called the Christian religion existed among the ancients, nor was it lacking from the beginning of the human race until Christ Himself came in the flesh, when the true religion, that already existed, began to be called Christian." St.Augustine<br /><br />"Why, then, the gentiles accuse us saying: What was Christ doing in former times, not taking care...? We will reply: Even before He was in the world, He took thought for His works, and was known to all who were worthy." St. John Chrysostom<br /><br />Are we to behave like the laborers in the vinyard, and be jealous because God is generous?Ecclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-88448136396983877462016-05-28T10:32:32.256-05:002016-05-28T10:32:32.256-05:00One True Holy ROMAN Catholic and Apostolic Church
...One True Holy ROMAN Catholic and Apostolic Church<br /><br />I guess there was no Church until Paul went to Rome? I would also assume the Church would cease to exist if a nuke dropped on Vatican City?Ecclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-34267341486611075312016-05-28T10:26:47.334-05:002016-05-28T10:26:47.334-05:00It is truly right to bless you, O Theotokos, immac...It is truly right to bless you, O Theotokos, immaculate and most pure, as the Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, ever a virgin you gave birth to God the Word. You truly the Theotokos we magnify!Ecclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-30566234710760297432016-05-28T08:54:30.889-05:002016-05-28T08:54:30.889-05:00Jesus established His Church for two purposes:
S...Jesus established His Church for two purposes:<br /><br /><b> SALVATION </b><br /><b> SANCTIFICATION </b><br /><br />neither of which can be attained unto outside the One True Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic ChurchMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-72307085154685512492016-05-28T08:51:48.144-05:002016-05-28T08:51:48.144-05:00The heretics of the east deny Original Sin, Sinles...The heretics of the east deny Original Sin, Sinlessness of Mary, they permit Adultery and solemnise it in sacred rituals -there are other heresies they promote but ABS doesn't have them on the tip of his fingers now...Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-21851358867440570642016-05-28T08:49:06.467-05:002016-05-28T08:49:06.467-05:00Pope Leo XIII, Exima Nos Laetitia, 1903:
“The Sa...Pope Leo XIII, Exima Nos Laetitia, 1903:<br /><br /> “The Sacraments, which some people keep and use outside the unity of Christ, can preserve the appearance of piety; but the invisible and spiritual virtue of true piety cannot abide there any more than feeling can remain in an amputated part of your body. … They no longer have the Sacraments, with the exception of Baptism, which they confer, so it is said, without ceremonies on children; a fruitful baptism for the children provided that, once the age of reason is reached, they do not embrace the schism.”Mick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-59591002734459653732016-05-28T08:46:53.894-05:002016-05-28T08:46:53.894-05:00Add to these ideas the fact that every single prot...Add to these ideas the fact that every single protestant Baptised with the Trinitarian formula is axiomatically a Catholic and remains a Catholic until he reaches the age of reason and refuses to submit to the authority of the churchMick Jagger Gathers No Mosquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879499915093940176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-41283738519631267752016-05-28T03:01:27.643-05:002016-05-28T03:01:27.643-05:00When St. Alphonsus says, “If ever a pope, as a pri...When St. Alphonsus says, “If ever a pope, as a private person . . .", he does not mean the pope in the seclusion of his private chambers. He means the pope as a man, rather than the pope as an office. The pope as a public office can never fall into heresy, and that's why a pope that did publicly and obstinately profess heresy, would immediately show himself to have lost his office, especially if he tries to use his office to enforce his heresy.Catholicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03752056093814096521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-57123277239265643342016-05-28T02:58:15.200-05:002016-05-28T02:58:15.200-05:00Not necessarily, we would have to look into what w...Not necessarily, we would have to look into what would classify as "falling into heresy". Having a nagging doubt in your mind about Our Lady's virginity may not constitute heresy; but if one obstinately denies it after being told that what cannot do so, one might well be a heretic. If a pope were to behave in such a manner, I suspect, with St. Alphonsus, that the pope might have automatically deposed himself. I don't think that St. Alphonsus was ignorant of history. His "History of Heresies" is quite comprehensive.<br /><br />You're being a bit tart when you say that Pope St. Pius X, or any other pope, is not "an organ of the Holy Spirit." The truth is that is precisely what the pope is. All the bishops and the clergy are organs of the Holy Spirit, when they act in obedience to that Holy Spirit, but especially the pope, because it is through the pope that the Holy Spirit can speak to us with his full divine and infallible authority. <br /><br />Catholicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03752056093814096521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-87691462684817157232016-05-27T23:05:10.766-05:002016-05-27T23:05:10.766-05:00An example:
A Native American before the arrival ...An example:<br /><br />A Native American before the arrival of the Europeans lives his life following the natural law as best he knows (without Christianity, he would still have a conscience). He takes a wife and treats her well, raises his children to follow the virtues he knows, he does not commit atrocities and fights honorably in wars against other tribes, and he tries to undo any transgressions he committed against his fellow men. Now, this does not make him "justified", but I do believe God would provide such a man the ability to make a choice. I believe every human being who has lived and will ever live is given a chance, no matter how fleeting or eleventh hour, to achieve salvation.<br /><br />I didn't use the example of a Chinese because it is possible a pre-15th Century Chinese could have come into contact with the Assyrian Church of the East and had the chance to at least be baptized, if not receive the other sacraments.Ecclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-24466624127971226152016-05-27T22:52:08.528-05:002016-05-27T22:52:08.528-05:00Of course it is an error. If it was true, I'm...Of course it is an error. If it was true, I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be a pope who hasn't fallen from the papacy. I wonder if Ligouri was simply unaware of Papal history in the 9th and 15h centuries.<br /><br />In my experience, most cradle Orthodox (I do not include former protestant Convertodox) reject Catholic doctrines as they are commonly presented. Frame the actual beliefs as "hypotheticals" in a "What if Catholics believed this..." and they actually agree with you most of the time.<br /><br />Even I reject many Vatican I doctrines in the way they are commonly represented. I don't believe the pope's "universal jurisdiction" gives him the ability to unilaterally depose the Melkite or Coptic Catholic Patriarch as that would violate Florence. I don't believe "infallibility" means that the moment the tiara was placed on Giuseppe Sarto's head his mouth became an organ of the Holy Spirit. Ecclesial Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17070187926547373245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-16531275973328513322016-05-27T07:09:07.055-05:002016-05-27T07:09:07.055-05:00If we start talking about what one knows or doesn&...If we start talking about what one knows or doesn't know, as if faith alone is capable of making a man reborn, or worse, lack thereof then we open the door to invincible ignorance which saves a man. Then it is better not to preach the Gospel for by ignorance everybody shall be saved.<br /><br />We do know what Acts of the Apostles say in 13, 48: "And the Gentiles hearing it, were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to life everlasting, believed.".<br /><br />It is putting on Christ which saves us, and that happens when we are reborn of water and Spirit, i.e. in baptism of water.<br /><br />Trent teaches in session 6. chapter 7.<br />"the instrumental cause [of justification] is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified" (...)<br />"whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumens beg of the Church (agreeably to a tradition of the apostles) previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow:"<br /><br /><br />So basically, having supernatural faith, hope and charity is the fruit of justification in baptism, whence it follows that none can have supernatural infused virtues if he is not baptized. By those fruits we keep justification and are said to be justified, since we need to keep them to be justified. None of these can merit the grace of justification, not even faith, without which one cannot please God though, as Trent again teaches in chapter 8. of the same session: <br />"..we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.".<br /><br />Faith which precedes justification is not the supernatural faith, since that one is infused in justification, but one which we get ex auditu, and is only natural consent of mind to truths of the Gospel.Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-80094455863621493612016-05-27T07:08:41.188-05:002016-05-27T07:08:41.188-05:00What is important is: "ita, nisi in Christo r...What is important is: "ita, nisi in Christo renascerentur, nunquam justificarentur" from chap 3 on justification. Spiritual rebirth by which man renasceretur has effects of removing guilt of original and actual sin and temporal punishment for sin. This is the effect of sacrament baptism, and we know that because Trent teaches us in sess. 5, chap 5.: <br /><br />„If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only erased, or not imputed; let him be anathema. For, in those who are born again, there is nothing that God hates; because, There is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, harmless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; so that there is nothing whatever to retard their entrance into heaven.“, and also Florence: <br />„The effect of this sacrament is the remission of all original and actual guilt, also of all penalty that is owed for that guilt. Hence no satisfaction for past sins is to be imposed on the baptized, but those who die before they incur any guilt go straight to the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God.“. <br /><br />So, effect of baptism is spiritual rebirth, i.e. being born again. But, ita, nisi in Christo renascerentur, nunquam justificarentur, i.e. <br />if they aren't born again in Christ, they would never be justified, i.e.,<br />if they don't have both guilt of sin and temporal punishment which is due to sin remitted, they would not be justified, i.e. <br />if they didn't receive the grace of spiritual rebirht they would never be justified. <br /><br />there are those who teach baptism of desire(bod), among whom st. Thomas Aquinas and st. Alphonsus Liguori are most prominent, say that bod remits only guilt of sin and not the temporal punishment and that such person would have to endure purgatory upon death. that means that bod doesn't provide the grace of spiritual rebirth, which means that it cannot even justify it's recipients. It doesn't render them born again in Christ, and therefore it doesn't justify them.<br />Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-69587948677268942722016-05-27T06:44:46.160-05:002016-05-27T06:44:46.160-05:00The Orthodox only deny papal infallibility and uni...The Orthodox only deny papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction, whereas the Arians had a heretical Christology and the Donatists a heretical view of grace. <br /><br />AnthonyUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05192594580249914996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-56203824080222752902016-05-27T04:57:48.426-05:002016-05-27T04:57:48.426-05:00When I say that there are few outside of the Churc...When I say that there are few outside of the Church living in sanctifying grace, I mean it. A lot of people are nice exteriorly but wicked within. I do not see much evidence of supernatural grace in men. The reflection on the FEWNESS of the saved, will move us to evangelise, if anything.Catholicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03752056093814096521noreply@blogger.com