tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post6938729351092220822..comments2024-03-12T04:14:16.271-05:00Comments on The Rad Trad: Pre-Vatican II MassThe Rad Tradhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-45543431001152153182013-06-26T15:31:26.473-05:002013-06-26T15:31:26.473-05:00There is a bit much going on in this Mass. There a...There is a bit much going on in this Mass. There are acolytes with candles behaving as they would at high Mass, an MC subbing as a part-time lector, two servers acting as they would at a low Mass, and a thurifer acting as normal.The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-52335197916126988162013-06-26T11:38:06.320-05:002013-06-26T11:38:06.320-05:00"and the altar boys follow Low Mass ceremonia..."and the altar boys follow Low Mass ceremonial." - are the candle bearers according to Missa Cantata ceremonial? if yes what else?Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-44847619994140406462013-06-24T13:03:53.361-05:002013-06-24T13:03:53.361-05:00Only if it's spicy, deli mustard!
Don't g...Only if it's spicy, deli mustard!<br /><br />Don't get me started on the illicit Liturgies of the SSPX - I once remember a rubrically purist seminarian turning to me (a sacristan)aghast when Bp. Fellay was going to celebrate the all-too-common Missa Cantata-Pontifical Hybrid Mass - the Rite of Econe, indeed!<br /><br />The dialogue Mass is an interesting case. In principle, I favor it, but in practice, it has too many variations. One summer I spent a few weeks in Ridgefield, CT wherein the daily Mass is dialogue, and it worked well because of the small number of congregants, half of whom were religious and hence could pronounce Latin uniformly and with a proper cadence. Where I am now, we have a "Type 2" dialogue Mass - i.e. short responses only - and it's mostly fine, but on a few occasions when no server was present (a different story), the congregation's rendtion of the Confiteor and Suscipiat shaved off a few years of Purgatory! Two years ago, I had the interesting opportunity to witness, for the first and only time, a TLM (in Westchester County, NY) wherein the congregation not only made all the responses and recited the Ordinary, BUT also said the Introit, Gradual, etc. with the priest (a "Level 4" dialogue)...a total joke if it were actually funny!<br /><br />This just begs the rhetorical question - why bother with the dialogue Mass and not just go for the real thing, the Sung Mass?Joanneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00496552906164909711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-34821910719912234612013-06-24T11:24:24.258-05:002013-06-24T11:24:24.258-05:00I agree with all the above. Interesting that you m...I agree with all the above. Interesting that you mention the dialogue Mass. I have seen it done very unsuccessfully in America but very well in Italy; the priest wore a microphone so those attending could hear him clearly, and the laity did not participate in the prayers before the altar.<br /><br />I think the SSPX bishops illicitly use the throne whenever they pontificate because it's what Msgr Lefebvre did. The difference is that as a high ranking prelate Lefebvre was given some cardinal-like privileges by Pius XII, including the right to use the throne for Mass anywhere outside Rome. Conveniently overlooked, eh?<br /><br />I have never attended a four hymn sandwich myself, I even decided to go to an Eastern Catholic Church on Christmas rather than a TLM when I discovered it would be a "low Mass with hymns"—I'll have mustard on that.The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-19071930325670004252013-06-24T09:04:56.704-05:002013-06-24T09:04:56.704-05:00I'm not in favor of any vernacular; I even loa...I'm not in favor of any vernacular; I even loathe, but tolerate, hearing the readings repeated in English before the sermon. <br /><br />That said, having been "in" the SSPX for nine years, it was always clear to me that High Mass was the norm. I even heard priests speak of making the Low Mass as much like High Mass as possible (hence, their justification for the Dialogue Mass - very popular in France - whether you agree or not). Likewise, the Office sung/recited in common thrice a day. When I was in St. Mary's, during the school year there was a Missa Cantata (or Solemnis) at least once a week besides Sunday, even for a lower ranking saint if no other great feast happended to occur. Holy Week (sadly, Pian of course) had Solemn High everything from Palm Sunday through Easter. Anytime a bishop came to visit, automatic Pontifical Mass at the Throne (illioitly!). And not just St. Mary's, but the same liturgical sense at their medium and smaller venues because all of their priests imbibe this kind of rejuvenation of the Liturgy at the seminary. The same can be said of the FSSP which derives its charism from the SSPX. It would seem that all of the orders founded particularly for the Traditional Liturgy share this same focus; they are the true sons of Dom Gueranger (just need to scrape off that 1962ism!). These are the groups to which the diocesan clergy look as the example of how the TLM is to be celebrated, though the four-hymn sandwich is still alive and well in many American TLM parishes, but at least it's not the ONLY thing available anymore.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Joanneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00496552906164909711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-80911342495095253452013-06-23T22:14:48.299-05:002013-06-23T22:14:48.299-05:00Precisely, John! The new liturgy did not come out ...Precisely, John! The new liturgy did not come out of no where and many horrible practices associated with it (I have the USA in mind specifically) are really institutionalizations of folk religion. The average American parish in 195X and 201X differ in that one sang "Holy God We Praise Thy Name" to death whereas the other sings from the Gather Hymnal; neither were ever liturgical.<br /><br />Interesting that you mention the SSPX's derivation from the continental practice. At the end of my series on what caused the Reform of the Roman Rite I suggested that things like vernacular epistles might have a place in a restored old rite. This was first done in France and done near ubiquitously; the Society still does it that way; and yet France was also where the resistance to the new liturgy was strongest. I think the old rite, one could say, was still very much alive and vivified there rather than a prescribed ritual for the priest alone.The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3348523519788188753.post-63021042371114897992013-06-23T20:26:06.459-05:002013-06-23T20:26:06.459-05:00Convincing our fellow Trads (Rad or otherwise) tha...Convincing our fellow Trads (Rad or otherwise) that the 4-Hymn Sandwich is less than par is a battle for the ages. I often say that the Low Mass of 195x and the Novus Ordo are two sides of the same liturgically minimalist coin.<br /><br />I agree that the TLM is celebrated and appreciated much better in the current day than it was previously. This is partly due to the SSPX, being a continental European entity, importing more of a "High-Mass culture" here into the US rather than simply continuing the American norm of yesteryear, and thank God for that. Sometimes I think that V2 was the felix culpa for reappreciating the Liturgy.Joanneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00496552906164909711noreply@blogger.com