Sunday, November 23, 2014

I Can't Believe....

They're real!

30 comments:

  1. What's worse...the Children's Lectionary. Believe it. It's real too.

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  2. Did you really believe they did not exist?

    You can found them in Latin here:
    http://www.ordo.pallotyni.pl/index.php/missale-romanum-ad-2008/109-appendices/1193-appendix-vi-preces-eucharisticae-pro-missis-cum-pueris

    http://www.ordo.pallotyni.pl/index.php/missale-romanum-ad-2008/109-appendices/1194-prex-eucharistica-ii-pro-missis-cum-pueris

    http://www.ordo.pallotyni.pl/index.php/missale-romanum-ad-2008/109-appendices/1195-prex-eucharistica-iii-pro-missis-cum-pueris

    K. e.

    PS: dmw, where could I found that Lectionary=

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    1. PPS: Actually, I suspect that this morning, at the (NO) Mass which I attended on an importanct sactuary near my town, the priest used one of these anaphoras, despite there were few children...

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    2. I heard of these things years ago, but never saw evidence of their existence. Tradistanis focus so narrowly on liturgical abuse, one has difficulty distinguishing what is bad and what is sacrilegious. This ceremony is the latter. It begs the question: is this a real Mass? Do the elements change? Is the context that of a Mass or of some silly play-acting?

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    3. Matthew: Even worse. He was a Dominican friar.

      Our Pacellian Church is capable of the worst things in cultic matters: Liturgy is a mere experimental thing able to express our own theological views. I suppose the Mass is valid, but these "Anaphoras" are so odd that sometimes I have the temptation of thinking that Our Lord does actually not come upon the altare just because He feels shame!

      These "Anaphoras" remind me the experimental ones composed by parish priests in Holland and Germany during the middle 60s...

      K. e.

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    4. Justinian,

      Dominicans do go to the extremes these days. When they're good, they're very good. And when they're bad...well, you get Matthew Fox.

      Our Pacellian Church is capable of the worst things in cultic matters...

      At times it seems like the Church is divided between a majority, declining Montinian Church (nostalgic for 1968, or, alternately, some unspecified time in JPII's reign) and a minority curmudgeonly Pacellian Church (nostalgic for 1958), though I take your point that both sides seem just variations of Pacelli. I still wonder if there is any prospect of a Peccian Church, mainly because that was the last time before the Papacy started Reforming Everything - until I reflect that (for all my admiration for Leo XIII) it's this obsession with particular pontiffs that's been the source of so much of the trouble.

      P.S. Those experimental Dutch and German liturgies of the 60's seem to have produced very decisive results on their lab subjects: Those Catholic children of the 60's are almost all now ex-Catholic middle-agers of the 21st century.

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    5. I used Pacelli as a paradigm of an ecclesiastical administration capable of destroying the Holy Liturgy just because it doesn't fit their taste. A prospect of a Peccian Church? (I would prefer a pre-Avignon Church, indeed) I don't think so: most SSPXers and EDers are too Pacellian (or Sartian) to even consider that possibility. Just as progressives fall on their knees before Bergoglio, and conservatives before Ratzinger, they just want a new Pacelli or Sarto to do exactly the same thing. And that is not a solution.

      K. e.

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    6. ...they just want a new Pacelli or Sarto to do exactly the same thing...

      There's some truth to that.

      But I wonder if Francis may yet beat the papalotry out of some such folks. (He hasn't yet, but it's clear that some are struggling with cognitive dissonance.) In different ways, until 2013 conservatives and traditionalists could convince themselves that the Church was moving in the right trajectory.

      Now they're learning the hard way that leaning hard on papal power can be a fickle and dangerous exercise.

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    7. But I wonder if Francis may yet beat the papalotry out of some such folks.

      I do not think so. From my few contacts in Spanish- and Italian-speaking Tradistan, I can infer that Francis is actually encouraging them to persevere in their ultramontane views: they reject Bergoglio as they rejected Montini 40 years ago: because he is not as Pacellian as they would like him to be. If next year Bergoglio dies, and Burke becomes Pope, they are not going to see him as they now see the former; they will run to kneel before him. (Because of that, I hope Burke will never be elected Pope). I agree with what the Rad Trad has said on this before, and what is discussing with you in the other post.

      But maybe you are true. Future is known by God alone. So let's pray!!

      K. e.

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  3. Justinianos,
    Here: http://www.ltp.org/p-2541-lectionary-for-masses-with-children.aspx

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    1. So, the same Lectionary of all other Masses, but "adapted?" to children Masses...
      $67 for this rubbish...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqjf35TBzH8&spfreload=10
      K.e.

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    2. Yes, it uses dumbed down language... It uses the Contemporary English Version (CEV) with modifications by the bishops' conference. http://www.adoremus.org/0201lectionary.html

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  4. I can believe that you can't believe that some believe it is acceptable for children to believe that they believe in a different way than adults believe in believing.

    Believe it!

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  5. I've unfortunately been to a number of Messes where they used them. Stomache churning.

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  6. If only they were sung in Latin...then it would be an opportunity to file that as "brick by brick," a veritable triumphal advance for the unstoppable Reform of the Reform!

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  7. In addition: does anyone here know how to find the editio typica of the "Eucharistic Prayer for the Zaire Dioceses", approved by the Vatican on 1988?

    K. e.

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    1. Here it is: https://archive.org/details/OrdoMissaeZaire1971

      It's also available through WorldCat: http://www.worldcat.org/title/missel-romain-pour-les-dioceses-du-zaire/oclc/38347335

      Also, here's the 2013-14 Ordo: http://www.cenco.cd/docs/documents/ORDO_2013_2014.pdf

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    2. The Zairian preface is really Zairian specific. Are there any other anaphoras in other rites which are so specific about the geographical location of where the Mass is being celebrated?

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    3. Thank you, dmw!

      Marco: are you talking about, e.g., the Gallican prefaces or those of St. Theresa and St. John of the Cross in Spain?

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    4. Ἰουστινιανός, if you look at the Zairian missal, you'll see what I mean. https://archive.org/stream/OrdoMissaeZaire1971#page/n11/mode/2up

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    5. Sorry, I had not read that paragraph. It is interesting, even more whe I have found the French version of that Anaphora, and the Zaire does not appear, but only "the rivers in the world"...

      https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6QMP1B_-t8_a1VCRlZHODZwSk0/edit?pli=1

      K. e.

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  8. The pastor of my former parish routinely used the "Eucharistic prayers for Masses with children." What made it worse is that he speaks with an effeminate, childish voice, so being at Mass was something akin to watching Sesame Street.

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    1. And here I thought suffering through a two-hour long $$PX Low Mass, also with an effeminate childish-voiced priest, was torture (one hour was devoted to the snooze-fest sermon).

      Nope... It's still painful to remember.

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    2. a two-hour long $$PX Low Mass

      Do you mean... spoken Low Mass?

      K. e.

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    3. Yes. Done in an $$PX church.

      It still took two hours.

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    4. And I imagine it was a dialogue spoken Low Mass...

      Things like that oftem makes me feel that SSPX priests and faithful actually don't love the Liturgy, but only use It as a banner for other aims (in Spain, mainly political and ideological).

      K. e.

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    5. The FSSPX Masses I ever went to in Portugal were always dialogue Masses, celebrated with such speed that one wondered if these people actually do appreciate the Liturgy.
      Curiously, the FSSPX have no Portuguese vocations...

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    6. It was done American-style. The priest mumbles the Latin while the congregation silently reads, watches the altar boys+priest religiously for any minor slip-up, or prays the rosary in the pews inattentive to the happenings on the altar.

      The $$PX in the states are losing a few of the craziest ones here to Williamson's "Resistance". I know a family who stopped going to Mass, even with mainline $$PX, and go once a month when a "Resistance" priest flies into town.

      It's sad, really.

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