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| source: sthughofcluny.org |
Another parish embraces liturgical restoration:
Another church on the rite liturgical trajectory. The celebrant is a very sensible convert and a lover of Newman; the subdeacon was an experienced MC who trained a great number of the 1980s and 1990s old rite celebrants in the northeastern United States. I recognize them both from when I attended Mass with the St. Gregory Society in New Haven. Good to see them continue their work.
How are they allowed to do that?
ReplyDeleteI mean, wasn't that abrogated under 50's and 60's legislation?
I'm all for it, but...ya know - the legality.
Dear Marko,
DeleteAs long as it is not done with the intention to disobey and defy the current Authorities,and inasmuch as it seeks obedience to the Tradition of our fathers, I do not think the keeping of such rites should be the cause of much scruples.
Francis Arabin
Marko, my most honest answer comes from the Summa: "Custom has the force of a law, abolishes law, and is the interpreter of law."
DeleteI like that it's a fuller, earlier Roman cut.
My favorite feature is the fact that the "broadstole is actually made by folding the chasuble, and is not a separate vestment. It took much discussion and trial and error to work that into the design.
DeleteThe maker’s vestments are very well-suited as a general norm for that; the violet ones in the “Neri” cut are especially supple. We have a set in what in French or American English is called violet, the bluish-purple color.
DeleteWell by that logic, that the custom abolishes the law, and excusing ourselves with: "oh i'm not disobeying the present, i'm just obeying the past", we can go back as early as we'd like.
DeleteAlso, they're using provisions of Sum. Pont. which is referring to '62. Under '62 legislation planetae plicatae and stola latior are prohibited. If you're using what you're using, use it in the way it says it should be used. Don't be dishonest about it.
Why is that concept so hard to grasp?
Why is it so hard to grasp that excusing oneself with tradition is a slippery slope?
I mean st. Gregory made some radical changes to the Rite of the Mass and people and other bishops got very angry with him, but thanks to him, we have the present order of the Mass. So when does something become tradition? After how many generations? By whose authority?
Don't go all sola traditio on me.
Guys don't get me wrong. I long for tradition. In fact i long for 8th century Roman Rite - before it was gallicanized. Yeah. An antiquarianist. But hey. I can't have it so i don't go and make up my own rules and make up my own church.
DeleteI think Dr. Hemming says it when he says something becomes tradition by antiquity of continuity of use, not just mere antiquity (i.e., antiquarian). Dr. Hemming's book is a must read for things of this nature.
DeleteAs for the Gallicanizations, they were suited to the Franks, who weren't like the austere Romans, and would have misunderstood austerity and brevity for boring etc. Still, I wouldn't mind having the Roman rite not Gallicanized were it really needed.
And plus, those kind of chasubles to me are the latest development i deem acceptable for liturgical use. And the color is quite pleasant.
ReplyDeleteFor a generation before Gregory the Great, and possibly longer, the ministers in Rome wore the chasuble and only the chasuble; for nearly half a millennium afterwards, the ministers at Rome wore only the chasuble. 1100 years after the 9th century, the ministers still retained the chasuble for penitential seasons. And then in the 1962 editio typica of the Missal, the single line "planetae plicatae et stola latior nor adhibentur" is sneaked into the Rubricae Generales, and that single line added by a committee has the power to cast away 1600+ years of liturgical history. Or maybe that is a silly liturgical (and dare I say, theological) hermeneutic...
ReplyDeleteBut you see, that's liturgical tradition for '62 Tradistan, at least for those who totally support the 62 missal! Ignoring everything before, and pretending that the '62 missal was the fruit of "organic development" when in fact, it was also by committee, just as the '69 rite was and the '55 rite before. I say this bearing in mind the '62 rite is mostly superior to its successor, with the exception of Holy Week (without that vague Good Friday prayer, which however is made too much of, because there are other prayers in the Good Friday Office, I believe, that still clearly show the Jews in need of conversion, as Fr. Hunwicke and the LMS had shown).
DeleteMuch better than the current "traditional" vestments, one of which as Rubricarius noted looks like an overgrown bib!
ReplyDeleteThese vestments are just exquisite. Not just the style, but that color is so richly the Roman violet. The Northeast US now has a veritable axis of liturgical restoration: Berlin, NJ and Norwalk, CT. I had hopes for Holy Innocents in NY, but after their recent Candlemas photos...
ReplyDeleteI will see your rector and Bill Riccio this summer, God-willing, in which I can learn some of this. Hopefully I can make it to both parishes in order to learn the older Holy Week...
DeleteIt would seem, to me at least, a sort of limited view to consider the use of planatæ plicatæ as the only element on which to base one's hopes for liturgical restoration. There are so many angles from which one could work to restore things.
DeleteA good example would be to have Sunday Vespers every Sunday of the year, which Holy Innocents has had for several years now. Will a parish that does not have Sunday Vespers (and I assume this blog --and its readers-- give the Divine Office great importance) not be considered "a veritable axis of liturgical restoration"? I would not think so. I know that St. Mary's in Norwalk has Vespers only on the first Sundays of the month ... what about the other Sundays? Is that a deficiency in the process of restoration? I would not think so.
Holy Innocents has 5 Sung Masses a week, which not very many parishes with the traditional Mass have. Does that mean that the parishes that do not have that many Sung Masses (especially given the comments and feelings expressed on this blog about Low Mass) are not "a veritable axis of liturgical restoration"? I would not think so in this case either.
What about all those places that do Holy Week at the new times or distribute Holy Communion on Good Friday? Even those places with the pre-1955 ceremonies, would they not be considered "a veritable axis of liturgical restoration"? I would not think so.
So, why so much wait given to the planetæ plicatæ?
It is a wonderful thing to see that planetæ plicatæ are being used at these parishes (and I don't know how many more), but even at these places these chasubles would stop being used if the respective Dioceses saw them as a problem.
If Bishop Sullivan were as intolerant of traditional things as he was when he was in NY, Berlin (NJ) would not currently be "a veritable axis of liturgical restoration." Thank God for the change he seems to have had!
LM1983, is it necessary to take a post on a bit of vesture and some comments as a criticism of another parish?
DeleteI was merely commenting on the fact that Holy Innocents did not continue its previous use of folded chasubles and violet for the pre-Mass of Candlemas. The two parishes which form the "axis" in my opinion seem now to be on a clear trajectory of steady restoration, adopting slowly more and more of the "pre-1955" rites and customs. Does HI have it in sight to follow the same loosening of the 1962 mold?
DeleteI understood that. I was not being critical of your comment (in a negative way), but I meant that while it is great that folded chasubles are making a comeback, that that in itself cannot be the only lens through which to view (or judge( liturgical restoration.
DeleteI am not sure whether Holy Innocents will use folded chasubles in the near future, but I would imagine, given that they were not used for Candlemas, that they will not.
Nevertheless, the restoration of parochial life (in a traditional form) has to be viewed in a much winder (fuller) sense, and not just on whether folded chasubles are used.
For example: A parish that offers traditional Vespers (or any other hour, but let's use Vespers for convenience) *every* Sunday of the year is offering its parishioners a "richer" (or "fuller") liturgical experience than most parishes. AS we can all agree, the canonical hours have disappeared from parish life.
Most parishes cannot have a Sung Mass with good frequency (not enough money, not enough volunteers, etc.), so a parish that offers 5 Sung Masses a week (or more if there are big Feasts that week) is, in fact, offering a "richer" ("fuller") liturgical experience to the parishioners (I say this keeping in mind all the things that have been mentioned about Low Masses on this blog).
My question implied question was: why make folded chasubles the only (or the main) thing by which to judge liturgical restoration? There has to be much more to liturgical restoration than the use of the folded chasubles, especially given that they were/are not used throughout most of the liturgical year.
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DeleteAnd honestly, Bishop Sullivan is a neutral factor here; with the exception of my recent installation as an acolyte, everything that we have been doing would still be happening regardless. The immediate impetus for the present restorations at ME began in 2013 following a certain event that happened in March of that year. In short, a wake-up call to ditch ultramontanism/positivism in the Liturgy. I think this is the same thinking in Norwalk.
DeleteThe Rad Trad,
DeleteI was not criticizing parishes. And I was not taking the comment as a criticism of a parish.
I was simply disagreeing with the idea that folded chasubles are or should be the only lens through which to view liturgical restoration. There are many other parishes that have started their own path to liturgical restoration, but folded chasubles are not the first thing they will want to consider as the first and only step to achieve that.
That would not seem fair to parishes that started liturgical restoration in their parochial life with a Low Mass, or with Vespers only once a month, or a Sung Mass once a week, or with a Solemn Mass for first class feasts, etc.
I should add that we'll also be soon receiving custom-made planetae plicatae, in both violet and black, but I believe the stola latior will be its own vestment according to more recent usage. Our next Solemn Mass is Laetare Sunday (in which this servant will debut his straw subdiaconal role), so no planetae plicatae; look for Palm Sunday to showcase our new vestments.
ReplyDeleteI am more interested in seeing photos of the "Missa Sicca" on Palm Sunday! I hope you guys post them!
DeleteWill there be pictures when these new vestments are blessed? That always makes for a good post!
DeleteDo they celebrate pre-1955 Holy Week at St. Mary's?
ReplyDeleteI have it on good authority that, inspired by our trailblazing efforts of the last two years, they will be paralleling our full restoration this year.
DeletePraise God!
DeleteI've been meaning to ask, in these locales where the pre-1955 Holy Week ceremonies are being restored, what schedules will be used?
DeleteNormally they do the ceremonies at the new times. The old Holy Saturday Mass time is usually given grief for being in the morning, but it is the only time that I think could even be argued. Modern practices of the old rites normally happen at the reformed times for pastoral reasons (practically no one has Mandy Thursday off and fewer people Good Friday than in the past). I've noticed many parishes still manage to retain Tenebrae even with the new schedules. I did notice last year that one diocesan community in the Philippines was celebrating according to the old schedule, with Pascal Mattins in the evening and the Mass in the morning on Holy Saturday; one presumes they used the old liturgy with it.
DeleteIndeed, we'll be employing the new times, mostly. Tenebrae for Maundy Thursday will be sung on Spy Wednesday night; unfortunately, in the mornings of Good Friday and Holy Saturday. The Paschal Vigil will begin earlier in the evening (6pm) than years past. I tried to push Holy Saturday earlier still, but 6pm (according to EDT in late March) is at least literally Vesperal rather than post-Vesperal.
DeleteI believe that St. Mary had used the pre-55 Good Friday years ago (under the previous Pastor), but the year after that it went back to (mostly) 1962 Holy Week (I think that there are pictures on the St. Hugh of Cluny website). However, under the new Pastor (thankfully), it is going back to the pre-55 Holy Week.
DeleteWe do not know what had happened in that time in between (or the reason why it went back to 1962), but it is now going fully pre-55 (except maybe for distribution of Holy Communion on Good Friday and the new times) ... and, I believe, the Ordinary seems to be aware of it!
I think it important to clarify, at not one service, save maybe Tenebrae, is St Mary offering rites celebrated in full according to the books in use prior to 1955, nor has she ever done so. A lot of this is hearsay and rumor. Rather, she is celebrating the rites that the Church has given her, but tempered and informed by the Tradition. Hope this helps
DeleteThis isn't always a bad thing; 1962!Maundy Thursday, if one doesn't countenance the silly interpolation of the Mandatum, which is optional, actually restores the ancient practice of not adding the "Dona nobis pacem" to the Agnus Dei, as ever at St John Lateran.
DeleteCompletely unrelated, but do lay servers wear red cassocks, or is that just a custom in certain countries?
ReplyDeleteI am interested to know this as well. I will be serving at 1962 Holy Week (no pre-55 here) and our MC told us no red whatsoever.
DeleteCustom. And it is stupid.
DeleteIn which countries is it customary (and since when)?
DeleteI do know the SSPX at St. Mary's unfortunately uses red cassocks at times, mainly important events.
DeleteIn some countries (or parishes), red chasubles were used for children and black for the older servers.
DeleteI never really understood the idea behind this because, if the servers were doing the part of the clerics, then the proper color for that would be black (not red).
Nevertheless, a book by the Papal M.C.s (Msgrs. Menghini and Dante) say that it does not matter what color of cassock is used (as exemplified by the different colors of the cassocks of the seminarians in Rome).
This is good news.
ReplyDeleteJohn R,
Congratulations and even more good news!
This album of photographs from Gricigliano shows violet vestments - including folded chasubles - being used for the Candlemas blessing and procession.
ReplyDeleteLink: http://www.icrsp.org/Photographies/2016-purification-1.html
Delete